Problem Solved: The IISE Podcast

In this special from the archives
edition of Problem Solved, we're

revisiting one of Keith Albertson's
most memorable conversations.

But first, I asked Keith why out of so
many episodes over the years, this was

one he wanted listeners to hear again.

His conversation with
Professor Shaul Ladany

Well, he had quite an amazing story.

we first learned about him from
one of our longtime members who

sent us a link to a news article.

we reached out.

We were able to contact him.

He was interested in, in talking to us.

We had a bit of a challenge.

we had some technical issues, so we
wound up doing it over the phone and,

had a seven-hour time difference.

But it was an amazing story, and he
has a story that, you, you, you can't

believe it until you hear him tell it.

He grew up in Yugoslavia
during World War II.

His family escaped to Hungary and
ended up in a concentration camp.

they got out alive at the end of the
war, so he survived the Holocaust.

Later got his education.

His family settled in Israel.

he became a teacher, then
a competitive race walker.

Ended up being selected to the
Israeli Olympic team twice, 1968 and

1972, and of course, those are the
Olympics held in Munich, Germany,

when a militant group overran the
Israeli team compound, took hostages.

11 of the members were killed,
but he escaped that as well.

He and many, of his team members
were able to escape that building.

So it's just an incredible tale
of survival and a lifetime of

problem-solving, and we thought
it was a very inspirational story.

And when you listen to the episode now,
what stands out to you most, and what do

you hope listeners will take away from it?

Well, part of it is his resolve.

I mean, he went through these amazing
experiences, and yet at, at the end, he

mentions he has no bitterness, in general.

he learned from the experience.

I, I, I think, you know, he doesn't talk
in detail, but he was able to apply his,

education and experience to being able to
survive these, various challenges in life.

Went on to a successful teaching
career and led many students

to, their successful careers.

in that way, he's quite an inspiration.

In fact, at the time we spoke to him a few
years ago, he was well into his, late 80s.

He was still involved at his university
and still race walking, at, at that age.

So, anyone with that kind of
inspirational story can certainly,

set an example for us all on how to
conduct ourselves through a life.

Here's the original episode and Keith's
conversation with Professor Ladany.

Keith Albertson, managing
editor of ISE Magazine.

Today's guest is Shaul Ladany.

He's a professor emeritus of industrial
engineering at Ben-Gurion University

of the Negev in Beersheba, Israel.

In addition to his noted academic
career as an instructor, researcher,

and author, he also excelled as a
world-class athlete and as a Holocaust

survivor who as a child spent six months
in a concentration camp in Germany.

As a competitive race walker, Professor
Ladany set records that still stand, and

he competed in the 1968 and 1972 Olympics.

In his second trip to the games
in Munich, Germany, he was one of

the Israeli athletes who escaped
a terrorist attack that claimed

the lives of 11 of his teammates.

In a recent phone interview from
his home in Israel, he discussed

his background, his athletic
career, and his academic efforts.

Professor Ladany begins by discussing
his childhood background and how

his family provided the first
introduction to science and engineering.

I was born in a middle-class family.

My father was a chemical
engineer and a patent attorney.

E- even his, uncle that was almost his
brother, he became a doctor of chemistry.

And so whatever I remember f- from my
childhood and later on, the discussions

at home were usually on science and
engineering And nobody told me that

I should study engineering and so on.

whatever I heard at home,
that influenced my interest.

And my… By the way, my father, one of
his teache- teachers, was Fritz Haber.

Fritz Haber got the Nobel Prize for trying
to get the, the nitrogen out of air.

Oh.

And, for some period of time,
my father worked with, Theodor,

Reichstein, who got the Nobel Prize,
not in chemistry, but in, medicine.

but he was a, a chemist.

among ma- many things, the, he was
the first to synthesize vitamin C.

So you see, my father
was also an able person.

Professor Ladany talks about his
family's struggles during the war

and the challenges they faced in
an effort to escape the Nazis.

I was born in Belgrade, and at age
five, I was already bombed by the

Germans when they attacked in a
surprise attack, Yugoslavia in '41.

Mm-hmm.

So I evidenced that awful
thing of being bombed.

I evidenced, escaping, then, trying to
escape out of Yugoslavia, taking the

risk, the risk of if we are caught on the
other side, on the Hungarian side, then we

will be… And they will discover that we
are Jews, we will be killed on the spot.

And if we remain in Serbia,
they might, kill us there.

And indeed, many of, of those that
remained there, most of them were

gassed, gas in trucks for the, with
the exhaust fumes of, of the engines.

That was the first attempt that the Nazis
killed Jews by g- by g- gassing them.

And then we, we have
been, refugees in Hungary.

I have been for, for a
time also in a monastery.

Awful times, and not because they did
something wrong to me, because I was

afraid that it will be discovered, that
I'm a Jew, and then I will be killed.

And then I, I was in ghetto, and
then later on, half a year in the

Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

So I had some, some experience
what it meant, Holocaust.

Mm-hmm.

And how were you able to,
how were you able to escape?

You were helped by a
group in America, correct?

It's a long story written,
both in my autobiography.

Toward the end of the war, in, in a
exchange, exchange of, close to 2,000

Jews, we were transferred to Switzerland.

After they lost everything during
the war, Ladany's family looked to

rebuild their lives and eventually
settled in the new nation of Israel

After the war, we returned to Yugoslavia
and, because there were no alternatives.

So the, you probably know, United
States did not, allow Jewish

immigrants in masses to come in.

There were very small quotas
and neither to Palestine.

Most of the Jews, surviving Jews
wanted to get to Palestine, but the

British authorities that had the
mandate to Palestine closed the door.

They had a quota of 2,000 people per year.

That's nothing.

So we returned to Yugoslavia, rebuilt or
repaired the bombed villa of my parents.

They started the factory that my father
had and so on, until the state of

Israel was established, and then as
a condition for leaving Yugoslavia to

Israel, we had to give up everything.

Have you seen people that are willing
to give up all their property just for

the right to leave the, country and
to get to the country of their wish?

Ladany's family faced many hardships
in their early years in Israel, but

they were able to finally create
a home as he began his academic

studies and his athletic career.

What was it like in Israel those
early days as a young nation?

How

did- I, I, I can tell you after two
weeks, we got some old house without

electricity, without running water, in

the garden, a primi- primitive
Turkish closet, no kitchen.

I, as a not yet 13 year old, w-
walked with two buckets to the

only place about a mile away to
get water And bring water to us

But you were free, so it
was worth it at the time

after

all- But we were, we were free.

Yes.

It's very difficult, really to imagine
such, such conditions, of life.

And I was able then to participate
in the first Israeli marathon

competition, the first in '56, and
in the competition there were only 10

competitors without proper training.

Lidani's career as a race walker
began in Israel at a long-distance

walking event and later led him
to more competitive efforts.

I found out that I have
excellent walking abilities.

One or two years later on, I entered
the first time the Israeli National

Championship in race walking, and, have
beaten the Israeli champion of that time,

for, at the distance of 3,000 meters,
l- a little less than 22 miles, by, by,

which is, seven and a half laps in a
stadium, and, I have beaten him by almost

a full lap And from that, that time
on, I became a full-time race walker.

After he served in the Israeli
military, ladany began pursuing academic

degrees in mechanical engineering.

He sought his PhD in business
administration and later

studied industrial engineering.

Immediately after the military service,
I started mechanical engineering.

Industrial engineering studies did
not exist at that time in Israel.

Only one year l- after, the start of, of
my studies, they started such a program.

I got a degree in mechanical engineering
and then a master's degree in mechanical

engineering, and later on I got married
after, getting my first degree and moved

to Jerusalem where my wife, worked for
PhD in, biochemistry, endocrinology.

And, the … My first job
was manager of the mechanical

workshop of the Hebrew University.

So after a year, I, I, I wanted to,
to stay to continue my study there in

Jerusalem, and I found out that since
in, at the Hebrew University there

was never any program in, technical
studies, that, the option to do a PhD

in physics is closed because the, they
saw that my engineering background

provides very little, what they needed
for their physic- physics program.

And I found out that they started, some
new field Never heard about it before.

And, I'm speaking about, year of '62.

what was that new field?

Business administration.

Mm-hmm.

And, there I studied and got an
additional second degree in business

ad- administration, but specializing
in the quantitative, field.

I was sent by the university
for my doctoral studies.

They thought that, I'm suitable to
teach in a business administration

program, production management.

I was, sent and, was accepted by
Columbia University, and there I was

accepted by the is- School of Business
Administration, but I took courses

in the School of, Engineering in the
Department of, Industrial Engineering.

So one of my loved teachers,
Sebastian Littauer.

Sebastian Littauer

got the Sch- Schubert, Award.

When I finished my master's degree
at, at Technion in Israel, in Israel

there was no computer yet of any kind.

Only later on, around '61, '62, they
started to construct a hu- at the

Weizmann Institute of, Institute of
Science, a huge computer in a hall at

the length of maybe 25 yards and so on.

A computer made of, ten thousands
of diodes with a computing power

less than, the computing power of

a common calculator,
electronic calculator today.

When I got to Columbia University for
my PhD program, for my thesis, Columbia

University did not have yet any computer.

And remember that the business
school was named after Watson.

Watson was the president of, IBM.

Mm-hmm.

Nevertheless, they did
not have yet any computer.

While seeking his doctoral degree
at Columbia University in New York,

Ladany began training more seriously
as a long-distance race walker with

former U.S. Olympians, and he soon
began breaking long-standing records

while aiming for the Olympic Games.

During my, time at Columbia University,
obviously when I arrived, I was

already Israeli ch- champion, race
walking champion, but, not at the

results that were, of high level.

Before I left for the United
States, in Israel I participated

in the Maccabiah Games.

Maccabiah in, in Israel.

Maccabiah Games are a k- kind of
classy Olympic Games for Jews.

Right.

And, there I met somebody from United
States, and he told me when I arrive

for doctoral studies, he will introduce
me to the US, walkers, in New York, and

I could train with them on weekends.

And indeed, I started to train on many
of the weekends together with them and,

learn on common, problems that we had.

And, I, I discovered that I
have exceptional abilities

in the long distances.

obviously I had to train for
it, and I trained, very hard.

In '66, I have participated in
the Eastern Regional 50 Mile Ch-

Race Walking Championship in New
Jersey Won it and broke the oldest

United States record of any kind.

It was an 80-year-old record.

I set for the 50 mile,
eight hours 35 minutes.

My wife told me, this is probably
the best, best or the largest

success that I will ever have in
my life, and, I agreed with her.

Hmm.

But next year, I,

in '67, I, improved my own US record and
lowered the, the record to eight, 11.

In '68, I improved my own
record, US record to 8:05.

And, obviously I was,

with training with the US walkers
that many of them were ex-Olympians

and, or had Olympics aspirations.

I got that, also the same aspiration.

And I have broken the Israeli
standard for the Mexico Olympic Games.

And immediately as I got my PhD, 1st of
February '68, and the Olympic Games were,

late October, instead of ta-taking on
any job, teaching job, I did nothing else

but just trained, for the Olympic Games.

And, I, I really became quite successful,
participated in the, in the Mexico in the

Olympic Games, returned to Israel, started
my academic career at Tel Aviv University.

But, in, in 1970, I returned to

U- to United States for that 50-mile
championship, reduced my own 50-mile

record to seven hours and I believe
57 minutes or something like this.

That was in 1970.

And, obviously I, in '69, I, in Israel,
I, wanted to try to repeat Olympic

fever to get for the second time to
the Olympic Games, for the '72 games.

And, in

'70, '71, I had started
seriously to train.

In '72, I flew again to the United States
to proceed- participate in the same

50-mile championship.

And not only that I have broke, improved
my own US record, but set a world record

of seven hours, 23 minutes and 50 seconds.

Remember, I started with
5:30, 8:35, eight hours 35.

Now I reduced it to 7:23, and until
today, it's still world record.

Wow.

Ladany describes his early teaching
career in Israel and how he emphasized

to his students the need to think
through problems on their own

rather than memorize various methods

In, '75, I joined the Bangalore
University in the Department of Industrial

Engineering, but really I did not change
my field, only the department that

employed me changed because in all my
academic career, I dealt with quantitative

subjects, quality control, production
management, and operations research.

Mm-hmm.

That was my field, and, I stayed with it.

I don't know what brought me to understand
the field of, how to try to educate

pe- people in industrial engineering,
but not only in industrial engineering,

at least in quantitative fields.

And when I'm saying, operations
research, I… That's a part

of industrial engineering.

Initially, you have to provide always
the basics, the tools, but then you

have to teach people how to try, how to
think, how, how to try to solve problems,

problems that they have never seen before.

Such approach can be done only after, you
have provided them with some basic tools.

Right.

And, even in, various, examinations, I
never asked, and I told my students in

advance, never to memorize anything.

I let them to have an open book at
examination, whatever book they decided

to have with them, and let them to
write in the book whatever they wanted.

But in the, in the examination, I provided
them with a problem With the problem.

So, problem where they, they had
to, to find out really what the real

problem is, and then how to approach
it, h- and how to try to solve it.

Mm-hmm.

The moment that you know how to try to
solve it, then, then they, there are

many possibilities, for the solutions.

If you teach them just, with, with
various methods and so on, they

don't get that habit of thinking
how to try to cope with problems.

The education has changed.

As always, the, changes appear.

I heard that in 1910s, there was
electrical engineering and mechanical

engineering in one department, one, one
subject, and they got separated later on.

So separations, divisions, that's
the rule of, of the changes.

Out of, our department or inside the
department, we have also robotics and

all the different fields that deal
with data management, information

systems, and so on, more and more.

It's all in the same scope,
but, we had, we have also ge-

generated additional departments.

You might also group them together under
the umbrella of industrial engineering.

I would say that the, students at,

colleges in industrial engineering are
qualified technicians, most of them.

There are exceptions, obviously.

On the other hand, at the universities,
the students have much higher intellectual

abilities, and, they get a much
better, preparation, and they are able

to cope much better with problems.

Obviously, there are exceptions,
but, this is the situation.

Now, in Uni- United States, I know
you have so many universities and

so many colleges, a- and you, you
don't expect that a small state

college would have the same ability
as a graduate of Stanford or MIT.

Ladani

discusses the growth of industrial and
systems engineering in Israel and the

different fields in which it is applied.

Yes, it is growing, and they
are working in various fields,

not necessarily in, production.

Well, most of them are not in production.

Many of them in various services,
transportation, banking, and in the

recent years, in various, startups
which they are become programmers.

this is in, in my, my view, not what
we would ever like them to, to do.

But, since in Israel there are so
many new startups and mainly, dealing

with various, information systems.

Ladany discusses his teaching
and research efforts and the

publications he's been part of.

Now, I can tell a few
things about my, myself.

I was one of the first that, started,
started the integration of production,

marketing, pricing, and inventory.

I published, something in around,

1970.

This was-- it, it started in many, many
other publications where the problem of

integrating simultaneously or, problems
from all those fields were there.

like, likewise, I followed,
don't know whether you heard the

names Dodge and Romig in quality
control, in, in sampling and so on.

But, I studied those things, but I was
one of the first, if not the first,

that started economic optimization
in quality control, taking into

cons-consideration the various costs.

Mm-hmm.

Likewise, I was the first that, started
to take into consideration in, economic

consideration in setting warranty periods.

And, I was, one of the first that started
to apply operations research, really

optimization in, sports decisions.

Was the editor of a special
issue of management science, of

another issue, and, of, two books.

Plus, I wrote the, the entry on that
subject on three editions of, of the

Encyclopedia of Management Science and
Operations Research, and published,

Maybe 15 papers or more, more on
that sub-- more on that subject.

So optimization, what, supports many of
the decisions were usually intuitive.

Professor Emeritus since 2006.

I'm still, engaged in research,
dealing with, trying to find

the coordinates of targets.

Published, several papers on that,
and especially presently, trying

to f- to find the best method.

There are several method, methods to find,
to estimate the point of intersection

of, rotated ellipses in the space when
they should have had a common point

of intersection, but they do not have.

And there are several me-methods.

All of them take a different time,
and all of them provide different

accuracies, and, to, to try to
evaluate, those different methods.

Ladany discusses how he's staying
active as a race walker, including

a longtime birthday tradition

I'm still race walking.

up to, simply I would say,
since my 50th birthday, at that

time I was at Georgia Tech.

I started to celebrate my birthday,
birth- birthdays by walking o- one

kilometer for each year of my age.

My 83rd birthday, I walked 83 kilometers.

Planned in, in, April 84,
this year, to do 80…

a walk of 84 kilometers,
but then, came the corona.

And, but, on 28th of Apr… of, February,
I still walked the Tel Aviv Marathon,

a full ma- distance of marathon,
which is, 42 kilometers, 26 miles.

I still walked it, being the oldest
participant in the marathon Whether I will

be able to do next year, which is in seven
months now, 85 kilometers, I don't know.

What I can say that since we are not
getting younger, neither myself, I feel

from year to year how every mile gets
longer and how every slope gets steeper.

Here, Ladany discusses how he
might be remembered for his

athletic and academic careers.

I don't know how I will be remembered.

I know that I from-- I got awards,
unusual awards from two directions,

which I know that is unusual.

By the way, I, I won also the
100-kilometer world championship after

Munich, a month after it, and I won master
championships and set a world record in

the 100 mile for the 70-plus age group.

From the port side, the International
Olympic Committee awarded me the

Baron Pierre de Coubertin medal.

Baron Pierre de Coubertin

was the one that resumed the
Olympic Games- Right … or

restarted Olympic Games, modern
Olympic Games in 1896, I believe.

'
96, yes.

Mm-hmm.

And he directed several of
the first Olympic Games.

So he-- And that award is a very rare one.

I got it for my achieve-
unusual achievements.

On the other side, in Israel, I got
several lifetime achievement awards in

industrial engineering.

So I am very proud that I was awarded
both for my sports achievements as

well as for my academic achievements.

How long I will be
remembered, I don't know.

In closing, Ladany discusses the lessons
learned from his long and adventurous

life that he can pass along to others.

Yeah, I don't hate people, but I remember.

I, I, I, I, I have a good memory still,
although it is fading, fading for names,

but still I have a good, good memory.

What I can tell you what is important,
for persons, first, that I learned

from, from the Holocaust, you should,
y- you should take care of yourself.

Very few others, will try to help you.

That's true as an individual,
and it's true also as a country.

Mm-hmm.

Only if it's in their interest.

I don't know how much you are
aware of, history of Czechoslovakia

when, Nazi Germany, took part
of them first, the, the Sudetes.

Nobody intervened and so on.

If you are not strong enough, if
you, you cannot defend yourself,

you might lose a lot, including your
own life, your own independence.

You should be strong.

Second, you always might
lose all your assets.

My father lost, look, we left, in
Yugoslavia everything that we had.

Never got any compensation.

His, young uncle that I mentioned, he,
he has started from scratch, and he

has, built the largest pharmaceutical
concern of Yugoslavia It was taken

away as a Jewish property in '41
by the Nazi regime of Croatia,

then in the-- became independent.

Then it wa-- it, it
was nationalized by the

communists, and no penny
was ever restituted.

It was sold, by the way, just, yeah,
I, I want to point out wh-uh, what

type of property we are speaking.

It was sold, only, only the
con-- the pharmaceutical concern.

Not houses, not,

yachts and, and so on.

It was sold, sold for two and a half
billion dollars about 10 or 15 years ago

to an Israeli pharmaceutical concern.

Hmm.

Two

and a half billion dollars.

The family did not receive
a penny restitution.

What remains?

What remains when you lose your
knowledge and your ability to earn.

You have to educate people so that
such causes that, caused in the 1930s

in Germany the lack of democracy and
then the rise of the Nazi Party, you

have to teach, teach, teach children
and people h-how to keep democracy

Professor Shaul Ladany's story is one
of extraordinary resilience, but also

of perseverance, curiosity, and a
lifelong drive to keep moving forward.

Our thanks to Professor Ladany for
sharing his remarkable life and career,

and to Keith Albertson for choosing this
conversation as one worth revisiting.

And if you haven't already, make
sure you follow Problem Solved

wherever you listen to podcasts so
you don't miss what's coming next.

Thank you for listening to
this special from the archives

edition of Problem Solved.

Every great solution is
a story worth telling