Problem Solved: The IISE Podcast

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Elizabeth: Here's the problem.

Fast food might look simple from the
outside, but behind every perfectly

timed order, there's a massive
complex system at work at Chick-fil-A.

That system runs like clockwork, even as
the pace of business keeps accelerating

and customer expectations are high.

In this episode of Problem Solved, we sit
down with Sam Hartman, a multi-location

Chick-fil-A, owner and operator, and
Matt Riley, VP of Enterprise Solutions

to explore how they balance efficiency
with humanity and what leaders everywhere

can learn from the way Chick-fil-A
designs its systems, trains its

teams, and stays true to its purpose.

Welcome both of you.

Sam Hartman: Thank you.

Thanks so much.

Elizabeth: So to start with, I
would love to just hear a little

bit about, each of your backgrounds.

Sam, can we start with you and can
you just tell us a little bit about

your journey to becoming a franchise
owner and what drew you to Chick-fil-A?

Sam Hartman: Yeah, absolutely.

I started with Chick-fil-A right after
I graduated from college, from Taylor

University Small school here in, Indiana.

had an opportunity to, spend some
time with my best friend who got

an internship, at the Department of
Information Technology down in our

support center in Infil, greatest
company in Let's Do It Together.

Every other door that I was trying to
go through as a recent college grad

got slammed in my face and Chick-fil-A
became the obvious thing to pursue.

had about a three year apprenticeship
working for another operator here in the

Indianapolis area, and then have been
an owner operator of my own franchise,

for a little over 21 years now.

Elizabeth: Oh, wow.

And so now you've got three
locations is that, correct.

Sam Hartman: Yeah, we have, two
freestanding locations in suburban

Indianapolis, Noblesville,
northeast corner of the city.

And then we also have a location inside,
Cambridge Fieldhouse, where the Indiana

Pacers, the fever play, as well as
concerts and things of that nature.

Elizabeth: How did you go
from one to three locations?

Was that gradual?

Sam Hartman: Yes, very gradual.

first location was in Columbus, Ohio.

we were the second lowest volume store in
the chain at the time, $380 in revenue.

My first day of sales, slow day, felt
busy, because it was just my wife and I,

were the only two people in the building.

Elizabeth: Oh,

Sam Hartman: wow.

That's not entirely true.

our newborn was, in a large fry
box at the time as well, so.

The three of us.

It made for a busy day.

Elizabeth: I can imagine.

I have some, major respect
for your wife there too.

Sam Hartman: You should.

She's pretty awesome.

Yeah.

Elizabeth: So Matt, you are
a VP of Enterprise Solutions.

Could you tell us a little bit
about your background and your role

and how, you and Sam collaborate?

Matt Riley: Yeah, absolutely.

So, what got me here started
when I was about four years old.

My parents ran a camp and conference
center, and so that's what I did

for the first half of my life.

Went to school for that.

worked at some camps, all over the.

The country, before going
into just food service.

So I, was working for a company that
focused mainly on colleges and university,

smaller ones, doing dining services.

And so after a couple of accounts, I
ended up at Taylor University where,

Where Sam went as well as, so when a
Chick-fil-A opens a licensee location,

there is always a local Chick-fil-A
operator that acts as a consultant.

So they're there to be able to
help you through anything that

you're have issues with, get the
kind of that restaurant open.

in my case it was at the student center.

And then do monthly, checks to make sure
you're, the, brand assessments to make

sure you're doing everything in accordance
with how Chick-fil-A wants you to do them.

So say, I would see Sam
once or twice a month.

And the actual Chick-fil-A,
like business assessment would

take about an hour and a half.

And then we would spend another
two, three, I think one time, four

hours just talking, about life
and where we've been, where we

were going and that kind of thing.

And so there came a point in time
where I decided that I wanted

to look for other opportunities.

So the first person I reached out to
was Sam saying, Hey, do you know of any.

Operators in the indie area that
would be looking for someone who

could go straight into leadership.

And he said, well, gimme your resume.

Let me pass it around.

about a week later he said, actually,
I haven't passed your resume around.

I am going to create a position
for you in my restaurant.

And so that was nine years ago.

and I've been working with Sam ever since.

Elizabeth: Awesome.

That's great.

Well, Chick-fil-A is legendary
for operational consistency and

a pleasant customer experience.

So let's dig into what's happening
a little bit behind the scenes.

In a lot of fast food businesses,
you often have efficiency or a

personalized customer experience.

Sometimes neither, but rarely both.

So how do you intentionally
design and implement processes to

balance these two things equally?

Sam Hartman: That's a great question.

I think.

A large part of it has to do with just the
people that we bring into the business.

we certainly have gobs of systems and,
implementations that we're trying to

pursue, but at the end of the day, if
you don't have people that are bought

in that can do those things somewhat
naturally, then the best of systems fail.

and so, A large part of the credit
that we have for the success that we

are able to get in the restaurant is
derived from training, derived from,

kind of orientation derived from the
building of an HR team that is very

picky about selection, at the get go.

This is an engineering podcast, so I
suspect that's not the answer you're

looking for, but I would be remiss if I
didn't say that was a big component of it.

Elizabeth: I was gonna say, human factors
are such an important part of the process.

I mean, especially in a fast food,
environment, it's, relying on production.

So there's so many opportunities
for errors from taking someone's

order to delivering the order.

So that, I mean, I was curious,
how do you go about reducing those?

Those errors in improving human
performance, you would say like

training and just kind of starting
with the, right people to begin with.

Sam Hartman: Yeah, I certainly
think that's a big component.

our, vice President of human
resources likes to, remind people

when we get compliments from guests
that come by and say, where did you

find all these wonderful people?

They'll look around and go, well,
Susie was at, taco Bell and Billy

was at Culver's, and Johnny was at,
McDonald's and so forth and so on.

And so the, idea is not that we're.

unfinished people and finishing
them by any stretch of imagination.

We're just putting a little extra polish
on what we're trying to have them do

from a systems implementation standpoint.

Elizabeth: Yeah, so just for example,
the drive through probably one of the

most famous things about Chick-fil-A.

on a high level, why is the drive through?

So good.

Sam Hartman: Go for it, Matt.

Matt Riley: Well, there's a,
number of reasons why, why

the drive-through is, so good.

You know, like Sam was already saying it.

It starts with the
people and the training.

but then where our systems come into
place, we've got, you know, with

our phones, we've got all kinds of.

Data points and metrics that we can track
from, whether it's speed in the drive

through, check average, any of that stuff.

And so one of the things that we do in
addition to that, that human component

is we, are constantly analyzing those
metrics and trying to figure out, okay.

how many stops are we
asking people to make?

Years ago, we had a drive-through that
had six different stops, and we thought

that was great because we were really
focused on some of that service, part

of that and interacting with the guests.

But what we discovered is it was taking.

A lot of time, for those
guests to get through.

while we were wanting, we implemented some
of those to focus on the accuracy piece.

but it was causing people to be like,
man, this drive through is taking forever.

And so being able to reevaluate.

And say, okay, our focus was here.

Maybe we spent, too much energy
focused on that and we lost

some of these other things.

And you could tell that by, hey, it's
taking on average a minute for each car

to get out of the drive-through when our
goal is 19 seconds for the every, for

a car to be leaving the drive through.

And so being able to make some
adjustments going, okay, we don't want.

A car to stop six times, can it
stop only twice once to give the

order and once to receive the order.

And so those are things that, that
we look at on a regular basis and are

constantly trying to refine some of those.

And that's just outside the restaurant.

There's a number of
systems that we implement.

Inside the restaurant to keep that flow.

when you're looking at how do we store
stuff, how many steps does it take

to be able to restock these cups?

how do we add a position, to
be able to split this job, but

thus giving us an additional 20
seconds of savings per transaction.

Elizabeth: Interesting.

So what is, I mean, you're talking
about really specific things like

number of steps and things like that.

That specific example, how did you
get a certain number of steps from

19 to 15 or whatever your goal was?

Matt Riley: let's see.

I one of the first ones was a, former,
director that worked for us who is now

an operator in, in Northern Indiana.

his name was David.

He.

Literally counted how many steps
it took him to walk back, to one

of the storage areas for cups.

I mean, we've done a lot of
these, but that's just one

I, the first one I remember.

And so David's like, Hey, it took
me 50 steps to go get a box of cups.

and he said, if we move this box
to this storage area upfront, we go

from 50 steps down, down to 20 steps.

And so it's a lot of those things and.

That restaurant has had multiple,
kind of, rebuilds or, renovations to

change some of those storage areas.

So those are things we're
constantly looking at.

So when the drive-through was expanded
and we gained a lot of storage area.

Upfront in that drive-through, one
of the things that we did was look

around the restaurant and go, what,
did we have to store somewhere else?

That now can be moved upfront because
we're greatly reducing the amount

of time it takes to restock or
the steps it takes, which means, a

team member doesn't have to leave.

The milkshake machine for 30
seconds, to go back and restock

something, they can stay there.

And then that milkshake is getting to
our guests that much faster because

that person is there, ready to serve.

Elizabeth: That is so interesting.

So how does that vary across
the different locations, like

the different three locations?

It must be quite a bit to keep track of
all those different metrics, analytics.

Sam Hartman: Yeah, the, I think
the in-store leadership is what

really makes the differential there.

we have a team of, five folks
that serve on kind of a regional

board, that report to me.

two of those are.

General Manager Executive
Lead is, our title.

we things fancier.

so they each have senior
directors, managers.

Performance via KPIs all
across the restaurant.

there's a pretty substantial sales
volume difference between our two

freestanding locations in Noblesville.

but there's still a significant
drive towards how do we continue

to keep getting faster, getting
more efficient, in each location.

The differential between the two
from a sales volume perspective means

that the, metrics get a little funky.

but we're certainly doing a really
great job in each individual restaurant

being able to grow wherever they're at.

Matt Riley: I think one
thing, go ahead, Matt.

One thing that I was going to, bring
up, going back to like when you

were talking about, asking about the
intentionality of, the design process.

so one of the things that, that
I was thinking about with that,

we, what our vision is to.

we played a win and who doesn't
love a good Venn diagram?

And so we take these and we put
'em into, three circles of, we

played a win with our guests, with
our business and with our team.

and we take it an extra kind of
layer of those circles are also

rubber bands, and so when you pull
on one, it affects the, other two.

And so.

Any decision that, we're making, we
put it through those lenses of how

does this let us win with our guests,
with our team, and in our business.

And we know that there are certain
times where we've had to pull harder

in one direction than, another.

but we try to maintain this balance.

So if we're not gonna.

If we do something just to affect how
fast, a process is, what implications

that does that have on our business, and
what implications does it have on our

team, in addition to what we're trying
to fix with that, guest experience.

And so I think for us, that's something
that we like to focus on and it's become,

our vision as an organization is how
do we win in those three, three areas.

because it would be real easy to
say it's always guess first, or it's

always business first, but for us it's
about finding balance and being able

to create these systems that, that.

Do maintain, a balance.

It's not always equal, but we know how
it impacts those other areas and we can

say, we are okay with that, or, Hey, we
need to go back and rethink this because

it's gonna impact this one area too much
that, and we don't want to take that risk.

Yeah.

At all or just yet, or
whatever it might be.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

It's all interconnected.

Yeah.

So it sounds like, I mean, what I'm
hearing, and I'm not an industrial systems

engineer, but it sounds like what you're
doing is you're implementing, continuous

improvement, which is, you know, one
of the biggest things that ISEs do.

So it sounds like even if you're not an
industrial systems engineer by training,

you kind of start to think like one, have
you found that to be true, and do you

think that, that your employees kind of
start to think like that over time, too?

Sam Hartman: I hope so.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Sam Hartman: Matt mentioned,
our, the one restaurant that has

the higher sales volume, higher,
drive through, since that's kind

of what we've been talking about.

our sales volume has grown about
three and a half x from our original,

opening year, nine years ago.

and Matt mentioned the,
remodels and so forth as well.

So that amount of sales growth
combined with nine years worth

of time has led to an awful lot
of changes and implementations.

And let's move the catch up here.

No, actually, let's
move it back over there.

as sales have changed, as
throughput has changed, I remember.

I can't remember if you were there
or not, Matt, but very distinctly

recall, the first hour that we
hit 75 cars in our drive through

and it was this huge celebration.

now we routinely will do 290,
300, 330, cars in an hour.

And so that level of growth just
necessitates a high level of, As

you were talking about systems
implementation and change.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

So as far as the facility itself, that's
kind of continuously changing too.

You talked about putting ketchup
in different places and cups

in different places, but what
about like the actual structure?

How do you decide what, you know,
'cause those are, bigger changes.

So how do you decide when it's time
to make a, change in the actual

structure of, the restaurant?

Sam Hartman: Well, depending on which
way you're looking at it, those are

not decisions that we, as the local
ownership get an opportunity to make.

The flip side to that is because the
way our franchise agreement is laid

out, I don't have to pay for it either.

So yeah.

Pluses and minuses.

Elizabeth: Okay.

Gotcha.

Sam Hartman: Yeah, we have, because
of the sales growth, our corporate

office has been helpful in, getting
us a couple different remodels

and, improvements in throughput.

Matt is a genius looking at blue prints
and kinda predicting what sorts of things

the folks in Atlanta that don’t work in
the field might not be thinking about

or might not be prepared to adjust . you
can talk about some of those things Matt.

Matt Riley: Yeah, the, the most
recent one was the drive-through

expansion at our Saxony restaurant.

And the nice thing is that, recently with
the folks at, at Inc, they're getting

better at that back and forth feedback
and inviting the operator and his team or

her team, sooner in that design process.

And so I was able to take a look at
the blueprints as we were still in

the design phase of all that going,
okay, here's where things should be

and could we get extra shelving here?

Could the ice machine be located here
instead of this additional prep sink?

To be able to make
lemonades up in the cockpit.

We don't wanna do that.

There was a lot of back and forth and
some of it was, do you really need this?

And it's like, yes, we really need this.

there's one or two things I didn't
get in that process and I can

look back going, it would've been
perfect if we would've had that.

I, but.

That's just one of those things
that, you know, we can, live without.

I'm one, the one I'm thinking
is an additional KPS screen.

Again, just reducing the amount of
effort it takes from any one person

having to ask for something else.

If we can be proactive, that means
we're saving a two or three seconds.

And if that whole journey is,
we're trying to reduce that so that

way we get a car out of the drive
through every 19 seconds, one or two

seconds can make a big difference.

Elizabeth: So true, and what I'm hearing
is, I mean, you both must really just

know this process inside and out.

In order to make those kind of
suggestions, you really kind of have

to be like on the ground and in the
weeds, knowing this every single day

and seeing it and experiencing it.

Matt Riley: Yeah, you
definitely couldn't do this.

if my job was to just sit here all
day, in this room, I wouldn't be

able to be super helpful in a lot of
ways just because it, it takes being

in the restaurant and seeing those.

Systems working or not working,
to be able to work through.

What's that process to be able
to make those adjustments?

yeah.

The, data that we get, in all
of the different channels, is

only good to a certain point.

if you're in a sense of boots
aren't on the ground where you're

able to see it in real time, you're
not getting the full perspective.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Kind of leads me into my next question.

It's kind of about culture.

you know, culture, A good
culture has to start.

Well, any culture, bad culture too
starts at the top and goes down.

So can Sam, can you talk a little bit
about the culture of Chick-fil-A and how

do you incorporate that into your team?

Sam Hartman: Yeah, absolutely.

I think a big part of our culture
and our three restaurants is,

As Matt said, a willingness to get
in, get involved, and get hands dirty.

I like wearing a sport coat
every day because, I think it

differentiates me just a little bit.

I think guests appreciate knowing
that the owner is there working

and, handing bags out through the
drive through door and so forth.

I also have a large number of sport coats
that have peanut oil stains on the sleeves

because I was scooping fries or, helping
out in the kitchen doing things as well.

And the degree to which your organization
can grow is heavily dependent upon

how much your, upper leadership are
involved, how close that they can

get to customers, how close they
can get to staff and team members.

and I think that's a big part of
the culture that we've created.

I mentioned also as well, the degree
of training and implementation

that we do is very, high.

Serving chicken, serving chicken.

It's not life or death.

it's not heart surgery.

it's not rocket science.

but I think just from listening to
Matt for the last few minutes, you

can tell that it's complex, and the
challenges that, our team members face.

again, not life or death,
but seconds matter.

when a guest is frustrated because drive.

Slow, and moving it, it took them
six minutes to get through instead of

five minutes to get through, it has
a definite impact on sales revenue

and customer experience and OSAT
and all those other sorts of things.

So, recognizing that

that level of execution has to be at such
a high degree, in order for our guests

to be satisfied is a big, the culture.

Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely and I
read fairly recently that, Chick-fil-A

implemented a change from, from saying You
are welcome or no problem, to my pleasure.

So I'm just curious, can you talk
about the reason behind that?

Was it difficult to
incorporate that change?

Sam Hartman: I can speak to
that one a little bit, Matt.

our founder, Truett Cathy, was,
developed a really good friendship

with Horst Schulze, who was the,
CEO of Ritz Carlton, years ago.

And Truett became really enamored with
the Ritz Carlton staff that referred to

him and responded to him with my pleasure.

And so he really wanted to have
Chick-fil-A team members across

the country, respond in that way
and pushed it with a lot of effort.

if I'm being honest, over the course
of many years, it probably took, in

his perspective, it took six or seven
years, of him asking operators and team

members to incorporate my pleasure into
the vocabulary before it really stuck.

and now it's certainly a
big part of who we are.

again, I'm referencing our VP of
HR again, but he has, a line where

it says, my pleasure is not just a,
buzzword, it's a moral imperative.

If we are bringing on people to the
staff that don't have that kind of my

pleasure attitude, ingrained within
who they're as a person, then that

my pleasure does not sound nearly as
sincere as we want it to, to the guests.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think just as a
customer, myself, I think that does

actually have a really nice good impact.

I'm just curious, can you speak to
either Sam or Matt, can you speak to

maybe one of the biggest challenges
that you're facing right now?

If it's supply chain or staffing
or rising costs or whatever it

might be, can you talk about it
and how you adapt to maintain

that positive customer experience?

Sam Hartman: Go for it, Matt.

Matt Riley: Yeah, I, the, one that
we are actively working through, is

another Chick-fil-A restaurant opening,
very close to our two, freestanding

locations that we, did not qualify to
be able to apply, to, be able to run.

And so we're looking at, Really for
us, competition for the first time.

I mean, we all have competition from
a, quick serve restaurant standpoint,

but in our area, we were feeding
10% of Noblesville on a daily basis.

And so when you're looking at another
store opening in Noblesville, for us

it's, it's going to make an impact.

And so we are actively working
through that of top to bottom.

What does that, mean?

That means we have to make sure from a
guest's perspective, that they are getting

the best experience because they're
gonna be getting, the same Chick-fil-A

experience that everyone has known to
love and enjoy right down the street.

And so what's gonna be different?

About ours, what's gonna set ours,
apart from a very similar, culture and,

personnel and, all of those things.

So, what, how does that look different?

How do we continue to evolve when it
comes to our systems and what it takes

to deliver that chicken to our guests.

Are we doing that to
the best of our ability?

Do we have the ability to be faster?

is there something that we are
inconsistent on from a product standpoint?

I think it was actually Truett who
said if you, strive for perfection,

you can settle for excellence.

And so for us, our goal is perfection.

We know we're not gonna be perfect,
but if we fall short, well, we're still

gonna be doing a really good job of
execution if our goal is to be perfect.

And so finding all of those opportunities,
we're going to mess up and we're

going to figure those things out, and
then we'll make adjustments and we'll

continue to try to improve and we'll get.

The feedback from our guests, through
all of the different ways and avenues

that we have to be able to get that.

whether it's them filling out a survey
or having a lot of conversations

directly with us inside the restaurant
or, through the window of their car,

our guests are not shy to let us
know that we are doing really well

or we have created an environment
that, that has some friction points.

So they'll be the first to tell us, and
it's up to us to, listen and make those.

Elizabeth: And I'm just curious, as
an individual franchise locations, how

much freedom do you have to make, you
know, decisions like how far can you

know, vary this way or vary that way?

Sam Hartman: it depends a lot on what
area of the business you're talking about.

Obviously with recipe, the way we make
the sandwich has to be the same, right?

In terms of marketing, we have an
awful lot of freedom in terms how

we, engage with our guests, how
we, grow our brand on social media.

Online, digital platforms, et cetera.

A lot of freedom there.

in terms of HR components, I can choose
pay scales, I can choose benefits,

I can choose, retirement plans, in
whatever form and fashion that I want.

The buildings themselves are actually
owned by our corporate office, so I

can't do much with the infrastructure.

I can ask for things as Matt has
mentioned, but ultimately that's in the

purview of the folks in there in Atlanta.

Elizabeth: Is there something
about running a Chick-fil-A that

might surprise our listeners?

Sam Hartman: I think,

Whenever I talk with folks that are
interested in becoming operators,

the thing that always surprises
them is how, engaged in the

business that, that we need to be.

I talk with an awful lot of folks
that say, oh, I see how many cars

come through the drive through.

This must just be, a, printing
money, printing machine.

I'll buy one and go sit on the beach.

And, that is definitely not the way
to be successful within our brand.

that level of engagement is, very high,
or at least expected to be very high.

I'm in the restaurant, if I'm in the
state, I'm in the restaurant, every day.

Elizabeth: That is interesting.

So what, on that note, what other
advice do you have for young

professionals out there, who wanna work
in any operational leadership role?

Maybe not just Chick-fil-A
specifically, but just, in

operational leadership in general.

Sam Hartman: Go for it, Matt.

Matt Riley: I'd say be, open
to, to feedback, both ways.

I, Sam has created this incredibly
rich culture of, feedback,

especially amongst the leaders.

And it starts with him,
we've had a lot of.

Great conversations.

We've had a lot of tough conversations,
with Sam directly of what it meant for

him to lead us and what it means for us
to lead for him and with him, and it's

that constant feedback and Sam not being
afraid of us having those conversations

and us not being afraid for Sam to pull us
aside and say, Hey, I'm seeing some things

and I'd love for it to be different.

And so it's that ability to welcome
that feedback and also ask for that

feedback, because we can be real quick to
be defensive and not want to accept it.

but one of the things I, talk
to a lot of our young leaders

and, I'm even introduced, have
been introducing this with.

With my kids is the idea that,
our intentions are not always,

what is perceived by others.

And so if we're not open to that
feedback, then we create this culture

where, I don't understand how my
intentions are affecting those that I'm

trying to lead or trying to work with.

And so by, at the very beginning
establishing that, Hey, if.

If you want, to talk to me about some
of the things that you don't like about

how I'm leading, I'm, open to that.

that's a conversation I have
with anyone that I am leading.

I know what my blind spots are, and so
from the very beginning, I give them

permission to, call me out on those
blind spots because I know I'm not

going to actively be able to always
tell when I am letting that person

down, I'm not great at encouragement.

and that's just who I am.

But that is something that, I,
our, a previous, leader who worked

for me, his name's Josiah, he
thrives in an encouraging setting.

And so, that was something
where I had to tell Josiah like.

It's okay, for you to tell me, Matt, I
just need you to encourage me right now.

And I'm able to then flip that
switch to say, okay, Josiah,

I'm gonna lay it on you.

because I now know that is what was
missing in our interactions recently.

And so it's that ability to, but
if I didn't have that feedback from

people, I'd be a terrible leader.

And so it's being o again,
being open to that, feedback.

To receive it and, and
to give it to the others.

'cause we're all trying to make
each other that much better.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think
that's great advice.

Sam, what about you?

what's your best piece
of leadership advice?

Sam Hartman: I think I would kind
of piggyback on what Matt said.

if you're a college intern looking
for a summer job, if you're a recent

college grad looking to grow, not
only be accepting of that feedback,

but look for an organization that
will offer it to you and put more

value on that than the dollars that
they're gonna you to do the work.

at some point in your.

Career journey, maybe that flips.

But as a young person, being in an
environment where you can have a high

degree of confidence that your boss,
the person that you report to is gonna

be able to, give you frank feedback to
develop you to, Encourage you to mold

you, to shape you, to give you those
opportunities is way, more valuable than a

few extra bucks on a paycheck every week.

we have a phrase within our
organization that we use a lot.

It's not always kind to be nice.

and thinking through, how often,
especially in today's kind of,

we're very legalistic.

and so as leaders we're often
maybe a little afraid to give

that frank feedback to our.

People reporting to us.

finding that person, that culture that
can give that to you, is invaluable.

truly invaluable,

Elizabeth: right?

Giving the honest feedback with that
person's kind of best interest in mind.

Sam Hartman: Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

the, kind thing is to share,
boy, you, really screwed that up.

I love you, but you screwed that up.

Elizabeth: Right.

And here's how to do it better next time.

Sam Hartman: Yeah,

exactly

Elizabeth: right.

I do that with my kids.

Yeah, that makes sense.

So if there's one thing that you
would want our listeners to take

away about Chick-fil-A's approach
to systems, processes, and people.

What would that be?

Matt Riley: You know, I, think, don't
be afraid to start from scratch.

that is something that, you know,
we build these impressive systems

and, some of 'em are dictated.

but the ones where we have the
freedom to be innovative and

do some things differently.

It's don't be afraid to say,
Hey, this isn't working anymore.

Let's start from scratch.

And we might be, we might get to
something very similar, but it's

that practice of starting all over
and working from the ground up that

you might discover, Hey, there's one
or two things that, Have completely

changed how we're gonna move forward.

one that comes to mind is we had
this idea of what ha before we

got a door, for the drive through.

It's what happens if we took the person
who inside the restaurant at the window

and put them outside The restaurant.

And I remember going, I don't know if
that's gonna work, but it was, let's

think about this completely different.

Sam Hartman: Someone suggested
it would be a good idea.

If I recall, someone did not naming

names.

Matt Riley: Someone was pushing for it.

And, and so we said, you know what,
as much as one or two of us might

be against it, we're gonna try it.

because if nothing else, then
we can say, see, Sam, we told

you it wasn't gonna work.

But in this case, we, tried it and
it's like, this is a game changer.

Who would've thought if we would've taken
the person inside and put them outside

that we'd be able to do so much more.

And now there is a door.

So Chick-fil-A even looked at
that 'cause a lot of restaurants

started doing that, to be able to
say, Hey, this is a great idea.

Let's remove the obstacle from getting
people in and out of this restaurant,

in the drive-through to be able
to deliver food that much faster

and have a different interaction.

So if it's not for the
ability of just saying, let's.

Think about this, from the ground up
and rework everything, I don't think we

would've came to the same conclusions.

And so it's like, don't be afraid.

It doesn't mean you have to completely
blow everything up, but it's a good

exercise to, because you're gonna
find things that you missed just

because you can't see the tree through
the forest kind of, kind of thing.

if I didn't mess that, that quote up,

Elizabeth: right, yeah.

No, that makes sense.

Sam, what about you?

What's the one thing that you
want our listeners to take away

about Chick-fil-A in general?

Sam Hartman: I would, hope, that
guests continue to give us really

good feedback, on, how we're doing.

Wasn't fast enough.

Sandwich was too small.

Sandwich was cold.

sandwich was perfect.

I hope we get that too.

but I would also hope that.

our guests listening to this would
get a, a better insight into how

complex doing some of these things are.

I think, we often think of people
working in our fast food industry as

not as educated or, not as prepared,
but there's an awful lot of work that

goes into getting that sandwich to you.

At any given shift, there's probably 35,
45 people working at a time, in order

to get that sandwich to you in your car.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Nine people
probably touched that sandwich,

with gloves on, I should say,
at some point along the way.

Yeah.

and the complexity is just really high.

and so give us the feedback.

We definitely want it, good and bad,
but, hopefully a better understanding

of the complexities leads to a
better understanding of how we

can, deliver that feedback as well.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Well, I think our listeners are
really gonna enjoy this conversation.

If it's one thing that industrial systems
engineers love, it's a challenge to

solve, so, so I really appreciate that.

My last question is, what is
each of your favorite menu items?

Sam Hartman: I'll take that one first.

I get this question a lot.

I, my favorite menu item is whatever
thing we're not making right at the time.

we do a lot of internal audits
and we have some third party folks

that come through and do secret
shops and that sort of thing.

so we have very time sensitive
feedback as to what items we're making

well and what items we're making.

So, Whatever that we're not doing well at
the time and eat it every day for a month.

Elizabeth: Interesting.

Okay.

Matt Riley: Yeah, Sam stole my answer.

That's, that's a lot of times what,
I do as well, but, so if I can't

reuse that, answer, the spicy chicken
sandwiches is always my favorite.

But, right now our Pretzel Cheddar Club
is a fan favorite because I also know

that's not gonna be around forever.

So I gotta get my fill now.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Nice.

Well, it's like I

Sam Hartman: get the,
limited time only product.

Good marketing.

Elizabeth: Nice pitch,

It's coming up on noon, so it's
about time for me to take my lunch,

so, so maybe I'll have to grab that.

Well, I wanna thank
you both for coming on.

I really, appreciate it.

I know our listeners do
too, so thank you so much.

Matt Riley: Yeah, our pleasure.

It's our pleasure.

Elizabeth: A huge thank you to Sam
Hartman and Matt Riley for pulling

back the curtain on Chick-fil-A's
culture of systems thinking,

leadership and continuous improvement.

Their insights remind us that
behind every smooth operation are

people who test, adapt, and care
enough to keep getting better.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't
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