Problem Solved: The IISE Podcast

'Cause people would see this enormous
family coming at them and ask Frank,

"Well, what's it like to, what's it
like to have all these kids?" And,

"Oh, they're cheaper by the dozen." So

Within the profession of Industrial
and Systems Engineering, you'll find

scholarships, awards, libraries,
and professorships all bearing the

name Frank and Lillian Gilbreth.

Their contributions helped
shape the foundation of modern

industrial and systems engineering.

But who were the real
people behind those names?

On this episode of Problem Solved,
we're joined by Mike Farrelly of

the Montclair History Center for
a fascinating look at the lives,

innovations, and enduring legacy of
Frank and Lillian Gilbreth, the real-life

family behind Cheaper by the Dozen.

From construction sites and operating
rooms to classrooms, workplaces,

and homes, their influence can still
be felt more than a century later.

And to understand that legacy, we
begin with the story of Frank Gilbreth.

He was born in Maine.

He was, he was born comfortably.

His family was not rich,
but they were comfortable.

His, dad owned a hardware store and
raised cattle and, livestock on the side.

They were comfortable, but he
died when Frank was very young He

had, one brother and one sister.

His mom, moved to Massachusetts
and he, and his dad had set up a

trust for his mom, and she got by,
by taking advances from the trust.

But somehow the trust vaporized.

It disappeared.

Whether it was mismanagement,
greed, nobody knows.

It just hur- disappeared.

So his mom became a schoolteacher and
they moved to the Massachusetts area.

She became a teacher.

Schoolteachers didn't make much
money back then, so she opened up a

boarding house in her home to help
get by, and that affected Frank.

he was very concerned
about helping his mom.

he was not a particularly great student
in school, although when he got to

high school, he became, he became
very interested in math and science.

He took the entrance exam to go
into MIT, but decided to go to work

instead in order to help his mom out.

And he jo- he joined a construction
firm, the Whidden Construction Company.

Renton Whidden had been
his Sunday school teacher.

Renton also owned a construction company,
and he gave Frank a job as a helper.

But Frank rose through the ranks quickly.

He, was particularly interested
in bricklaying, and he

became a bricklayer's helper.

And he started paying attention to how
each individual bricklayer did their job

and noticed that they didn't all do it the
same way, and he began to start thinking

about the best way to put bricks in.

he developed… This is, one of his major
developments was a scaffold, where the

platforms could be changed quickly, and
most importantly, there was a n- extra

scaffold, extra platform that was put
there strictly to put the bricks on.

Before that, helpers, they're called
hod carriers, would just dump the

bricks at the feet of the bricklayer,
and the bricklayer would have to

bend over, sort through the bricks,
looking for the best side to face

out And it took a lot of time.

So Frank said, "Well, let's put a platform
within easy reach, of the bricklayer

where he doesn't have to bend over and
pick up bricks, and let's have a lower

paid helper or assistant sort those
bricks so that they're all laying on

the platform with the best side in the
right position so that all the bricklayer

has to do is pick the brick up with one
hand, put the mortar on with the other

hand, and slap the brick in place."

This reduced the motions
to about four motions.

Frank was able to lay s- 200,
2,700 bricks a day and the, where

the average had been 900 to 1,000.

Wow.

Yeah.

So after 10 years he became
Whitin's chief superintendent, but

they wouldn't make him partner.

Hmm.

So he started his own construction
company, and they were quite successful.

They could build buildings in record time.

along the way, he granted 13 patents.

In 1912, though, he decided he was
getting interested… He, was married

to Lillian at that point, and he
and Lillian became fascinated with

the techniques of Frederick Taylor-

Mm-hmm

…
who I'm sure everybody in the
audience is familiar with.

they decided to give up construction
and go into the time management field.

In 1904, he married Lillian Moller, in
Oakland, and they moved to Massachusetts.

That becomes an important point later.

So now we're gonna talk a
little bit about Lillian.

She was born in Oakland.

she was the second of 10 children.

her parents were a little bit
wealthier than Frank's parents.

he sold, William, Mo- Mohler, sold
building supplies Lillian was schooled

at home until she was nine years old.

At that point, they decided to
put her into the public school

system, where they made her start
all over again in first grade.

But in a very short while, Lillian
was promoted through the grades so

she caught up to people her age.

She did very well in school.

she did particularly well in high
school, and she wanted to go to college.

And her parents didn't really
want her to go to college.

At least they didn't want her
to leave home and go to college.

So she negotiated with them and got
them to send her to the University

of California at Berkeley.

She could get there by trolley
and still live at home.

She graduated in 1900 with a degree
in English literature, and she was

the class valedictorian, and she
gave the first commencement speech

in the history of the university.

Hmm.

She came east to get her master's.

She started at Columbia, but she
got sick, so she went home, and she

finished her master's back in Oakland.

She still stayed with English literature,
but she started taking courses on

psychology, and that's where she became
interested in psychology and also started

to become interested in time management.

she got her master's
in English literature.

Before she started her doctorate,
the family thought, you know, it

might be nice if she took a trip to
Europe to kind of a little break.

And in those days, a young woman would
never take a trip like that by herself.

She would always have a chaperone.

Well, her chaperone turned
out, out to be Frank's cousin.

The cousin introduced her to Frank,
and in 1904, they were married.

She moved east.

She attempted to finish her doctorate in
California at Berkeley, and she completed

her dissertation, but the college would
not award her the degree because she

didn't meet their residency requirements.

They required that the person live in
California, while at that point, she

was living in the, in the Boston area.

Well, nothing deterred Lillian, so
she immediately enrolled in Brown and

got her doctorate in another field.

she was interested in teaching, so
she got teaching certificate, and she

did her dissertation on eliminating
waste and wasted time and wasted

motions in the art of teaching.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Yes, indeed.

Frank published her first dissertation,
the one that the University of

California would not accept.

he published it later, under the,
title Psychology of Management.

So I think that probably gives you
the basic backgrounds, and it tells

you what kind of people they were.

Yeah, a very good team.

They turned out to be an
exceptionally good team.

As I said, they became interested
in the methods of Frederick Taylor,

and they started their own business
consulting in time management.

Around 1916, it's, it's not clear,
around the end of 1916 or 1917,

they moved to Montclair, which
is why I'm so interested in them-

Yeah

and why the people I talk to
are so interested in them.

The house isn't there anymore.

it was an old house.

They were not the build…
They didn't build it.

The carriage house where they filmed a
lot of their projects, that's still there,

b- but it's behind a brand-new house.

Now, for their family life, they ended
up having 12 kids together, right?

Yes.

11 survived.

Yes, they did.

11 survived, and a 13th
child died at birth.

Oh.

Mary Gilbreth only survived
to the age of five.

She died of diphtheria, and it's funny
because they, they mourned her loss

deeply, and they always considered
that she was still part of the family.

That's why they called themselves 12.

There was never a time when there
were 12 children altogether,

because she died before.

She was one of the oldest.

She died before many of
the younger ones were born.

So there was never a time when
there were actually tw- there

were actually 12 kids together.

But they always thought
of her as the 12th kid.

I'm gonna talk a little bit more
about Frank, if you don't mind.

he en- in 1918, World War I, he
enlisted in the Army as a consultant.

Now, the Army was
desperate for consultants.

They needed expertise
in all kinds of fields.

Frank was ch- his mission was to,
teach soldiers how to assemble and

disassemble and reassemble, small arms.

They could do it quickly and in the field.

Frank, with characteristic aplomb,
figured out how to do it blindfolded,

quickly and blindfolded, so
soldiers could do it in the dark.

But he got sick.

he got rheumatic fever, and then
he got pneumonia on top of that and

spent four months in the hospital
before they decided to discharge him.

he was sent home.

Lillian nursed him back to health,
but it severely weakened his heart.

a- after that, he had, had heart problems.

they pioneered the use of film
in the study of motion and time.

They would set up grids.

They would make, fixed grids that could be
put in front of the, stu- subject or be-

behind the subject, and they would attach
lights to their fingers and their head

and any other body parts that would move
and film it Or do time lapse photography.

And what they were looking for were
extraneous motions outside the work field.

You know, with peop- So that's
what they were looking for.

They were looking for extraneous
motions so they could figure out

how to eliminate extraneous motions.

Oh.

That is interesting, 'cause I
saw those pictures and I could

not figure out what that was.

It looks like, like when you see photos of
like long exposure, you know what I mean?

Yes.

That's what it looks like.

I'm gonna put some- Well, that

i- that's what you see.

That's what you're seeing.

That's what it looks like, yeah.

And

they're, they're looking-

Like lights attached to
their, like their fingers.

Oh, wow.

Interesting.

Yes.

Huh.

And they did it for all kinds of
fields, even, like clerical fields

for secretaries and, and, and they,
they did it for all kinds of fields.

And that was their way of studying

movement

the movement, yes

And there was another way
too, with the, the clock.

They would have a clock with photos.

Yes.

But they weren't as interested
in speed as Frederick Taylor was.

Oh, okay.

They were looking for a clock.

If you notice that clock, it
doesn't have numbers on it.

Oh.

I didn't notice that.

It does have little, you know,
perforations on it so that they

can measure units, but they're not
really trying to time the employees.

Got it.

They broke the work down into units.

They jokingly called the units thirbligs,
which is kind of their name backwards.

It's not exactly their name backwards,
but it's kind of their name backwards.

And they broke it down to different
units where they could identify what

the person was doing, how the person was
doing it, and that's how they measured.

It was a, it was b- it was
a very scientific study.

They measured everything.

The part that fascinated me is that
Lillian was a full partner with Frank

even though she was raising 11 kids.

they were, in the beginning they were
well enough, well off enough that they

could afford, hire… They had servants.

and for a lot of years,
Frank's mom lived with them.

So they helped.

The, you know, the other
adults helped raise the kids.

but Lillian was amazing.

She was a full partner with Frank, but
she found time for all of her kids.

Frank Jr. once said that even though
she was running around taking all the

care of all these kids, she managed to
make each kid feel like an only child.

Oh, I love that.

I

do too.

And, as we all know, Frank Jr. and
his sister, Ernestine, Gilbreth Carry

wrote a book about life in the Gilbreth
house where the Gr- Gilbreth…

The Gilbreths often made their
children the subjects of their study.

They watched how their children
did things and figured out

better ways to do the same thing.

Frank and Ernestine wrote a
book about it highlighting the

amusing things that happened

And they called it Cheaper by the Dozen
because Frank Senior used to joke that

everything was cheaper by the dozen.

If you got a dozen of
something, it was cheaper.

So that was, you know, 'cause people would
see this enormous family coming at them

and ask Frank, "Well, what's it like to,
what's it like to have all these kids?"

And, "Oh, they're cheaper by the dozen."
So, that was made into a movie in

1950, and I think we've all seen it.

I don't think there's anybody in
the universe that hasn't seen it.

What it also highlighted is the
fact that the Gilbreths, Frank and

Lillian, were always teaching the kids.

They never missed an opportunity
to teach the kids something.

They had a summer house, in, Nan- on
Nantucket Island, and they put Morse code

on the walls so that the kids could absorb
Morse code without even thinking about it.

So they were always exposed to Morse
code, and they would just absorb it.

If you looked up, they had a s- the, the
constellations and the planets on the

ceiling so that the kids could learn a
little bit about the basics of astronomy.

they loved, to do pop math, math
quizzes, Frank especially, and they

would then suggest tricks, you know,
ways to do mental math, m-a- ways

to do math in your head, quicker.

they studied every f- a
lot of different fields.

They included, surgery.

When the kids got old enough that they
had to have their tonsils removed, Frank

decided that it was best if they did all
the kids at once, and they brought the

doctor to their house, and Frank decided
he was gonna film the operation and figure

out the best way to do tonsillectomies.

So they hired a photographer.

they got the doctor to the house.

They set it up in their,
in their, carriage house.

They hired this guy to
come and, take pictures.

The guy forgot to put film in the
camera, and he was so embarrassed that

he just pretended to be filming the
operation for the whole freaking day.

I imagine he probably didn't
get paid for that day.

Oh my gosh.

That poor guy.

I feel bad for him.

But what they did discover, and this
is again, they're studying surgery.

You know, you don't, you don't think
of time and motion studies in surgery.

Back then, doctors, the surgeons had
to f- scramble for their own tools,

their, their instruments they used.

Their instruments were
just piled on the table.

Just like the bricklayers' helpers used
to just dump the bricks at the feet of

the bricklayer, the instruments were…

They were surgically clean, but they
were just dumped on a table, and the

surgeon would have to fumble through
them to, you know, as, as he needed them.

Frank said, "You know, why don't
you have…" And his words were

a caddy, somebody who was s- who
understood surgical instruments and

would be able to hand the instrument
to the surgeon as requested.

And that, of course, is
now the standard practice.

They're usually now it's a s- a surgical
nurse who's skilled in surgery who

hands the instruments to the surgeon.

We'll talk a little bit
about Lillian herself.

she was a very modest,
quiet, unassuming person.

And if you just met her briefly,
you would think she was just a

humble little housewife, r- mother.

Well, she was that, but she
was also a very determined,

logical, well-educated person.

she was almost a bulldog.

And in many ways, even though she was
the quiet partner, she was the dynamo

behind Frank and Lillian's, collaboration.

She helped him co-wrote the books
and didn't take credit for it.

She herself probably published 20 books-

Wow

or more on the field of
time and motion study.

Wow.

what I love is the strongest word, and
the kids, the kids make a point of this

in Cheaper and the Dozen, By the Dozen.

The strongest word, she never swore, the
strongest word she would use was Eskimo.

And if she was unhappy or displeased with
something, "Well, that's very Eskimo."

In 1924, in June of 1924, Frank was set
to go out on a lecture tour of Europe.

He got to the local train station,
the Montclair Lackawanna train

station, which is still there.

And then, then when I give
this presentation in Montclair,

everybody loves to hear about this.

he forgot his wallet, and he
went to a payphone to call

home, and he was hoping…

They didn't live that far from
the train station, and he was

hoping one of the kids could bring
his wallet to the train station.

He had a massive heart attack in the
middle of the phone call and dropped

dead in the middle of the phone call.

Lillian was on the other end, "Frank,
Frank, Frank, Frank." And then eventually

the operator comes on and says, "It
seems that the person has hung up."

Lillian, being very logical and
determined, figured out that losing

Frank's income was gonna affect the
family deeply, so she decided she was

gonna finish Frank's lecture tour.

So three days after Frank
died, she set out to Europe.

She sent the kids to Nantucket.

by that time there were enough
older kids to take care of the

younger kids, and they sent their,
handyman, Tom Greaves, up with them.

She had… She gave them some money.

It wasn't a lot, but she gave them some
money and let them, let them go up by

themselves while she went to Europe.

the, the third in line… I'm sorry, the
fourth in line, Martha, was particularly

good at mental math and budgets, and
she was good at organizing things.

So she was assigned to organize the
whole trip, to figure out how they were

gonna get there, to pack everything.

She packed all the kids',
the younger kids' clothes.

She forgot to pack her own clothes.

Oh, no.

So she got up there and she
discovered, "Well, she doesn't have

anything to wear for a summer."
So they went to a thrift shop.

She found some things that she
could wear, and she found a, a

frumpy old person's, bathing suit.

Now, remember, this was 1920s.

In the 1910s, women would wear bathing
suits that had sleeves and legs.

And it, it's the, you know, she would-
That was considered out of fashion when,

when Martha was the, was, a young woman.

when Lillian came back and met
them at the end of the summer, she

had brought, she brought Martha.

She had heard, heard about all
this, and she brought Martha a

brand-new fashionable bathing suit.

The kids were so careful with the
money and organized things so well

that they even had a little bit left
to celebrate at the end of the summer

when her mom, when the mom came back.

My goodness.

Let's get to the fact that, Lillian
was a woman, and she was a woman in a

field that pretty much was limited to
men, and she got a lot of resistance.

And there were a lot of companies that
didn't want to deal with her alone.

They were willing to deal with her when
she was with Frank, but now they were

not willing to deal with her as a woman

on the lecture tour, there was a
couple of clubs and, and meeting halls

that would not allow her entrance
because she was a woman, and she had

to hand the speeches over to a man.

she did it, but I'm sure
there were a lot of Eskimos,

uttered on that occasion.

She was pretty, she was pretty mad.

She did realize… She, she realized
that she was gonna have a tough time,

as a woman in a man's world, so she
decided to concentrate on things that

affected women, where she might be
given a little more latitude and she

might be accepted a little bit more.

So that leads us to the kitchen

She was able to convince the Brooklyn
Borough Gas Company to set up a model

kitchen for the Woman's Exposition
that was held in New York in 1929.

But again, the, the design of the
kitchen was the, the idea was that

everything was kind of in reach.

Yes.

It was the basis of what we call the,
the kit- kitchen work triangle now.

It was a kind of L shape, and all the
appliances, the sink, the refrigerator,

the oven, everything … These days,
the kitchen triangle, everything

has to be within six or seven
feet of e- of everything else.

so you, you reach everything
with a minimum of steps.

Now, if it were up to Lillian

The cook would stand in one place
and the, all the appliances would

be designed so that they were
within reach without moving at all.

Lillian wanted it to be
almost no movement whatsoever.

of course, that was not, you
know, companies, companies weren't

interested in customizing all the
appliances for, for, the individual.

They wanted, you know, they, for,
for them to make stuff efficiently,

they have to standardize.

So they try to pick good dimensions
that are ergonomic and, and practical,

but everything they make is the same.

'Cause again, Lillian wanted everything
tailored to the indi- individual.

She was very concerned with the
happiness of the person cooking.

She was a psychologist, you know,
or… And, she was interested in

the psychology of how things worked.

That, by the way, is one of the
biggest differences between them and

Frederick Taylor, is they were most…

Frank and Lillian were very
interested in the individual

rather than the overall effect.

Get-- We'll get to that
a little bit later.

The kitchen was a smashing success.

they thought,

you know, it, it attracted a lot
of attention, but it did not get

Lillian a lot of design contracts.

Again, because she wanted everything
to be designed for the individual.

For instance, if, it was a tall
woman who was cooking, she wanted

a sink that was higher off the
floor than for a short woman.

She wanted a higher stove.

Again, companies weren't interested in
customizing everything for the individual.

She designed, in 1933, she designed
for the, World's Fair in Chicago, she

designed a management desk for IBM,
and this was kind of everything all

in one place for the manager who were
watching production for the facilities.

This desk had everything.

It had a built-in clock, it had shelves
for reference books, it had shelves for

charts and places to hang charts up.

It had a place for a typewriter
and an adding machine.

Now, remember this is 1933, so
there were no, no PCs, no laptops.

That was Lillian's mission in life.

She wanted to make things easier
for people to do their jobs.

she invented the first
foot-operated garbage can.

Companies realized that she approached
things from a psychological point

of view, and so they hired her not
only to design stuff for women, but

also to help them market to women.

She had a long-term contract
with Johnson & Johnson to

market feminine hygiene products

And that's how she got by.

she was very successful.

If you compare yourself to her,
if you start reading about her-

Yeah

…
and compare yourself to her,
you're gonna start to think of

yourself as an underachiever.

It is amazing what this woman was able
to accomplish, seemingly effortlessly.

Wasn't she awarded… How many
honorary doctorates was she awarded?

23.

Oh my gosh.

I knew it was a lot.

From Princeton.

Wow.

You know, from prestigious
universities like that.

Of course, from Purdue
because she taught at Purdue.

She taught at Purdue for 20,
over 20 years, almost 23 years.

in fact, the, chair in
industrial engineering is

named for her at, at Purdue.

This kind of leads us into the
differences between the Taylor

method and the Gilbreth method

Again, Frederick Taylor
was interested in speed.

the symbol of his work is the stopwatch.

On paper, I don't know
personally what he felt.

At least on paper, he did not care how
easy the job was for an employee as long

as it fit into, it fit into the system.

You know, he, he, his jo-
his t- his thing was fast.

Do it as fast as possible.

Didn't really seem to care
whether it was easy or not.

and his ideas kind of fed into the,
i- the concept of production lines.

You know, where the employee is
just almost part of the machine

and relies heavily on management to
train the employees and to measure

efficiency and quality and constantly
be revising it to come up with the most

efficient, fastest way to do things.

Again, the Gilbreths were more
concerned with the individual.

Now, the net effect is-- comes
out pretty much the same.

It was really a philosophical
difference between the Taylors or

Frederick Taylor and the Gilbreths.

It's just the way they approach things.

But actually, in reality, the results
came out pretty much the same.

it led to a feud between Frederick
Taylor and the Gilbreths.

they'd stopped speaking to each other.

They-- Actually, in the early part of the
twentieth century, they worked together,

but they stopped speaking to each other.

Lillian tried to patch that
up at the end of her life.

the feud exists.

It's mostly their students and their
followers who keep the disagreement

going, and I am not enough of an
industrial engineer now to, to know

if they're, they're still feuding.

Both schools use science and
measurement to calculate the most,

the most efficient way to do a job.

Both schools develop tools and
methods to allow jobs to be done

faster and more efficiently.

Both schools, believed that workers
had to work hand in hand with

management to set up the workplace
to the most, more efficiently.

Although Taylor's school kind of
left the design to the management

more than it did to employees.

And both schools counted on management
to train employees, to measure the

results and the quality of the work

Lillian had known Herbert Hoover
and Lou Henry Hoover in California

before Herbert was president.

But when Lou became First Lady, she,
Lou, got interested in Girl Scouts,

and she invited Lillian to join her.

So Lillian became a national scout
executive, and she was in scouts

you know, she became-- stayed as
scouts for more than twenty years.

Frank and Ernestine wrote a book
called Belles on their Toes.

They wrote Cheaper by the Dozen and then
another book called Belles on their Toes.

That is B-E-L-L-E-S, the French word
for young women, because it also got

involved in telling a story about the
Gilbreth women getting a little bit

older, going out on dates, starting to get
married, so they had to be on their toes.

Oh, I see.

So anyway, Lillian, Frank and
Frank Jr. and Ernestine wrote

a funny story about Washington.

Lillian had been invited down to
meet the Hoovers at the White House.

The Hoovers wanted to meet the kids.

Lillian, being very practical, didn't
wanna go out and have to buy new

dresses and suits for all of the
kids, so she convinced the Hoovers

only to meet the boys, and she told
the boys, "Bring your best suits."

She wanted them to come down by train,
but they did the calculations, and they

figured it was cheaper to go down by car.

Now, the couple of the older kids had
bought up a beat-up, used Model T.

Now, this was in the '30s, so Model
T is no long-- is past its prime.

Th-they were-- Ford is no
longer manufacturing Model Ts.

They got a used one for twenty bucks.

It didn't have any fenders,
didn't have any roof

The six boys pile into this Model
T and drive down to Washington.

On the way, they have two flat tires.

somehow they exceeded the speed limit.

They managed to get stopped by
the cops a couple of times for

speeding, and it started to rain,
and it was pouring rain all the way

from Delaware down to, Washington.

So they get to the hotel where the mom
was, well, her mom was staying, their

mom was staying, late, and only a couple
of hours before the, they were supposed

to meet with the pr- the president.

So Lillian gets an iron and an
ironing board from the hotel, and she

starts drying out the boys' clothes.

Well, Frank Jr.

had just been to college.

He was one of the older kids and,
and he wore what we would call a

zoot suit, and Lillian hated it.

She did not like it at all.

So while she was ironing all these,
the suits for the boys, she got a

phone call and somehow, accidentally,
she left the iron on Frank's pants

and burned a hole in the pants.

Oh, my goodness.

It

was a disaster.

Well, I think she did it
on purpose to be- frank.

…
Oh..

So the, they had to stop on
their way to the White House.

They had to stop at a department
store, grab a suit off the shelf, off

the rack real quick, and so that all
six boys were in presentable suits.

And, that kind of brings us to
the, the end of their lives.

Lillian outlived Frank by 48 years,
and she died in Phoenix in 1972.

she got, as we mentioned
before, a heap of awards.

She got 23 honorary doctorates.

She was accepted into the American
Society of Mechanical Engineers.

She was the second woman to be accepted.

A woman by the name of Kate Gleason
was the first woman to be accepted.

the thing that really impressed
the heck out of me was Lillian

was given the Hoover Medal.

The Hoover Medal is something
that is awarded jointly by five

different engineering societies.

So they don't award it,
it's not handed out lightly.

It is very prestigious, and it
contains a humanitarian element.

She was recognized for her achievements
in designing for the individual, and f-

she especially designed for handicapped
people so they could perform jobs

as well as, non-handicapped people.

And that was all taken into consideration
when she was given the Hoover Medal.

The US Post Office issued a stamp,
a commemorative stamp in her memory,

in 1984.

she and her husband have a permanent
collection at the Smithsonian Institute,

and her portrait hangs in the National
Portrait Gallery in Washington.

I think we just wrap it up here that
although the field of time and motion

studies and scientific manag- management
has moved on from the work that Frank and

Lillian did, the work is solidly based
on the foundation that they and others

like Gantt and Frederick Taylor put in

place.

Absolutely.

Amazing.

I learned a lot.

I have one question I was wondering about.

I know that a lot of people have maybe
seen the more recent movie, and I know

that you had a presentation where one
of the grandchildren of the Gilbreths,

wa- attended that presentation.

It was a virtual presentation, and I
was just curious, can you share what

the family, what their thoughts were
or what that, that more recent movie

got right or wrong about the Gilbreths?

If you're talking about
the one with Steve Martin?

Right.

That had nothing to do
with the Gilbreth family.

Right.

The wife's maiden name was
Gilbreth, and they had 12 kids,

but after that, there was- Wow.

… no similarity whatsoever.

Right.

Which is why the Gilbreth family
was not real fond of that movie.

Right.

but a lot of people might
make that correlation.

I just wanted to point that one out.

yeah.

Re- really interesting.

I'm going to, for everybody listening,
I'm going to link the YouTube

video that I watched, into our show
notes so that people can watch that

because that also had pictures.

Yes.

And that would be really
interesting for people to go and

see those photos that, some of…

We were referencing some of those photos.

Well, Mike, again, thank you
very much for being here.

Thank you for all that
amazing information.

We're so glad that you shared it with us.

Thanks for being here.

Well, thanks, Elizabeth, and I'm
really glad… I'm glad to be here.

I'm glad to talk about this stuff.

Absolutely.

Thank you

Our thanks to historian Mike Farrelly
for helping to bring Frank and

Lillian Gilbreth's story to life.

If you'd like to learn more about Frank
and Lillian Gilbreth, we'll include

additional resources in the show notes.

Thank you for listening to
Problem Solved, every great

solution is a story worth telling.