Problem Solved: The IISE Podcast

Elizabeth: Everywhere we
look, problems surround us.

Some are simple, like staring at
a to-do list that feels impossible

to finish or even to start.

Others are more complex like when a
team loses trust after a project failure

and every decision turns into a battle,
and then there are wicked problems.

Those tangled systemic
challenges with no clear answer.

Think about ai.

As we rely on it more, are we
strengthening our abilities

or slowly eroding them for
industrial and systems engineers?

Solving problems is at the very heart
of the profession, but here's the catch.

The tools that work beautifully
on one kind of problem often

fail miserably on another.

So the real question is how
do we match the right approach

to the right kind of problem?

On this episode of Problem Solved,
Tom w Check walks us through a method

called Wicked Problem Solving, using
visualization tools that equips you

to tackle everything from the simplest
task to the most wicked problem.

David : This episode is brought to
you by IISE's Performance Excellence

Webinars helping you grow your
career with skills and leadership

supply chain analytics and more.

You can find the full
webinar library anytime at

iise.org/performance-excellence.

Elizabeth: Hi everyone, and welcome
to Problem Solved, the IISE Podcast.

Today we're talking to Tom Wujec,
a designer technologist, TED

speaker, and global authority
on creative collaboration.

Tom has helped Fortune 500 companies
tackle some of their toughest challenges,

guiding leaders in industries from
manufacturing, to healthcare to retail.

He's the creator of Wicked Problem
Solving, founder of the Wujec Group

and bestselling author whose books and
workshops have inspired teams worldwide.

Tom, you are a professional problem
solver, so it's great to have you on.

Problem Solved.

Thank you for being here.

Tom Wujec: It's my pleasure.

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Elizabeth: Well, many of our listeners
may know you from the TED Talk

stage where you've shown how playful
tools like marshmallows, spaghetti

and doodles on sticky notes can
help solve really serious problems.

So I'm just curious what first sparked
your interest in using these tactile

and visual tools for problem solving?

Tom Wujec: I began my career, uh, studying
astrophysics and physiological psychology,

and I found that, and in order for me
to understand, uh, how the world worked,

I needed to create a, a picture or an
illustration, or a sketch or a doodle.

And I found that, um, a really
powerful tool to make sense

of the world that we live in.

When I shifted from school to work,
I became creative director eventually

of, uh, Canada's largest museum, the
Royal Ontario Museum, and we would

have teams that would work together
to create exhibits to tell the stories

of science, nature, and discovery.

And as so often happens, everyone
had a different concept, a different

mental model of what was important.

The curator said this,
the educator said that.

And so the usual way of talking.

Didn't quite work because people
would go around in circles.

And what we learned in the design
phase with the design group is that

when we made ideas visible, when we
literally posted sticky notes on the

wall, illustrating what people said.

The meetings changed.

People shifted from talking at each
other to building a shared framework,

and so we moved from a, a, uh,
confrontational way of working to one

in which we collectively built a common
shared picture that actually ended

up being a, a, a powerful tool that I
ended up using in building software,

helping organizations figure out how
to build faster, better cars and so on.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

And just a quick note for our listeners,
uh, we wanna invite you to check out the

video of this episode on YouTube to really
see Tom's visualization method in action.

Tom, can you tell us about the
technology that you're using today?

I think you designed it.

Tom Wujec: I did actually.

So for those of you who are watching this,
um, I am, uh, in front of a large tablet.

It's called a Cintiq tablet.

And I will be do drawing and doodling,
doodling, um, and making simple

sketches to help illustrate the points.

Normally I have very rich, sophisticated,
interactive 3D graphics, but for

today's conversation, I thought it
would be much more interesting to

have loose, sketchy drawings because
that's kind of what we normally do

when we solve problems visually.

Getting up to a WA whiteboard,
you know what this is like?

And starting to create lines,
boxes, circles, two by two

diagrams to make our ideas visible.

So those of you who are watching will
see an application called Sketchbook Pro.

It was interesting 'cause we, we took a
$40,000 graphic application that required.

The, um, the horsepower of a
Silicon Graphics workstation.

Some of you know what that is.

And then we par boiled it down into,
uh, a $200 application and eventually

we've made it available for free.

So at one point 40 million
people were using Sketchbook Pro.

Elizabeth: Wow.

That's amazing.

So industrial and systems engineers
are trained to solve problems, but

when uncertainty or scale or people
get added into the mix, those tried

and true methods don't always hold up.

And you've talked about how problems
fall along a spectrum and how

our brains often struggle when we
treat all problems the same way.

Can you talk a little bit about why old
problem solving methods fail us sometimes,

especially when things get more complex.

Tom Wujec: Sure.

So problems fall along a certain spectrum,
and I think we all intuitively know this.

There are simple problems that have
relatively few elements to them.

Uh, few nodes, few connections.

And then there are complicated problems
like figuring out tax code where we

know all the elements, but there's lots
of them that kind of tax our brain.

And then we have the complex problems.

Uh, so these are problems where
we don't know all of the elements,

and many of them are fluid.

Or ambiguous, sometimes emotionally
charged, they're harder to solve.

And then there are the wicked
problems, which are often vast.

The grand challenges are
wicked, uh, climate change.

Um, the impact of AI have
elements that we don't know about.

And even different people frame
the problems in differing ways.

So in order for us to be able to
tackle and tame these problems,

we need to select the kinds of
thinking that suit the problems.

Elizabeth: Okay?

And so.

When we're in a group, we
have some limitations on us.

Um, you can't predict how
other people are gonna react.

Uh, everybody's brains work
a little bit different.

Can you talk us through
how to navigate that?

Tom Wujec: Sure.

I mean, there's lots of
problems with problem solving.

Um, but they kind of can be boiled
down into three big buckets.

The first is our limited brain power.

Yeah.

We all to be able to,
uh, attend to 2, 3, 7.

I don't know if I can attend
to seven things at one time.

Uh, at, and so our attention
is a limiting factor.

We only can keep so much information
in our internal working memory.

It's limited, it has a cap.

Secondly, different people have
different working memories.

They have different dynamics
of how things fit together.

A lawyer sees a situation in one way.

Um, a, a programmer will see a
situation in another, a systems

engineer will see it in another.

So we all have hammers to see the
nail, to address the nails that we see.

And then thirdly, um, we
don't typically use a shared.

Process of creative collaboration.

So the combination of these three
factors, limited brain power, the

differing dynamics of people, and
an ad hoc method of, um, problem

solving prevents us from focusing and
getting the genius o out of the team.

Elizabeth: Okay.

So how do we tackle this?

And you've talked about using
kind of sports, uh, as an analogy.

Can you talk about that?

Tom Wujec: Sure.

So we use the concept called plays.

So play is a time-bound structured
activity that guides people

through a particular activity.

When you think of a sporting event
or a sporting team, the team that

has the best plays and runs them well
is typically the one that brings.

Creates the goals.

Um, so what plays do I in the, and
we'll explain what a wicked problem

solving or a problem solving play
looks like in just a second, is they

give us a sense of psychological
safety because there is a process

and a method for us to move forward.

Secondly, they help us see.

Ideas so that we're not just talking,
but there's a visual component

that allows us to make information
visible, persistent, and movable.

That's really critical.

And thirdly, it transfers
the way in which we interact.

So rather than just.

Um, argued debate, which
is an important factor.

We are building a little systems model
of the problem at hand, different options

and how we, um, uh, how we we solve them.

So the interesting thing is that
system engineers are experts at this.

And so what I'm here to share are
how to apply these innate skills that

you've cultivated into other types of
problems that, um, you may not address

or that you'd like to address better.

So before we get to that, what I'd
love to do is to talk about the

elements of a play in a sporting event.

There are physical actions, mental
actions, psychomotor skills.

In wicked problem solving.

You can boil it down to three things.

First is to use questions, lead
with questions, and use questions

to focus and frame the topic.

And by selectively.

Strategically using questions
and asking them better, we become

instantly better problem solvers.

Second is to make ideas visible.

The simple act of creating a visual
representation of the thing that

you're working on, which can be a
doodle, a sticky note, a word, uh,

a chart, a systems model, whatever.

Is appropriate helps us externalize our
thought, take it out of our head and

into a shared surface so that we can
expand and multiply our working memory.

And then the third thing is to
think about what are the tasks

that we can perform to solve the
question, to answer the question.

Typically using, uh, some visuals.

So posting, drawing, um, sorting.

Rearranging voting, all of these very
simple actions lower the transaction

cost of going through the problem.

Okay?

So three principles and
it's simple questions.

Make them visible and then
have some clear tasks.

So let's show some simple plays and
how you can, uh, work through them.

Elizabeth: Okay, so how would we
run a play to tackle the problem?

Kind of a simple problem of
somebody feeling overwhelmed, they

have too much to do, what would
they, how would a play look like?

Tom Wujec: Sure.

So it's really simple.

So the first thing that you
do, um, in, um, with a simple

problem got too much to do.

Elizabeth: I love your,
I love your drawings

Tom Wujec: is, um, is to make some space.

So, uh, so, so create a physical space or
digital, but physical space has a added

benefit of engaging your physical body.

Um, and it, it's.

It's something that we remember as kids
and we've done as kids, but we forget,

uh, forget as professional adults, but
the simple act of writing physically and

using physical, sticky notes, changes,
um, how we interact with the information.

So create a stage.

Um, and so that can be, uh, a
whiteboard, a book, uh, some sticky

notes, a laptop with some, uh, sticky
note software like mural or mural or

one of the other great ones as well.

And you frame the question, which is,
uh, how should I organize my day or week?

So you begin with the question.

And then you have a space within
which to, uh, run your play.

The first step of the play
typically is to populate it.

You write what is on your mind, and so
typically using a number of notes, you

do what's called a mind dump, and you
exhaust, you get all of the ideas out,

out of your head, down to a surface.

That can take a minute, five
minutes, often, 10 minutes,

um, sometimes even more.

And that act, once you get to the
final thing, is remarkably lib

liberating because you've exhausted
you've, you've performed a transaction

in which you have systematically
created a data object for each of

the elements that are on your mind.

Then what?

Um, you make sense of them.

You arrange them into,
um, various structures.

So by making it visible and adding a
visual structure, you add another element.

So what kind of structure?

Um, you can, uh, organize it from
non-urgent to, uh, or something that you

can do now to something that you do later.

So simple.

Or you can arrange it
onto a two by two diagram.

We're all familiar with the, um.

The diagram of urgent and not important.

And not important.

And those diagrams, those, uh,
sticky notes can be arranged,

uh, into the, the diagram.

And there are others that you can
also choose, depending on what's the

underlying thing that's bothering you.

So maybe it's something
that you are ignoring.

So what are the things that
you're ignoring and what are

you, um, what are you addressing?

So the, again, the act
of making visible the.

Mental model that you have becomes a very
powerful tool to, uh, diffuse the power of

it, but also to help you get to clarity,
um, and figure out what's important.

Typically, people will then just do
a voting, uh, activity and then turn

it into the actual execution plan.

So the thing, if there's one thing
that I would love for, um, you and and

your listeners to remember is the term
space to solve problems visually, you

go through a process of making space.

So this is both literal and figurative.

It's literal in the sense that
you create physical space.

Um.

A place to think, um, to
communicate and to collaborate,

but also a psychological space.

You pause and, uh, figure, go through a
series of simple, easy to do steps, which

support and reinforce your thinking.

Each of the letters represent a
word, so s sense stands for stage.

It's all about creating a physical
or digital place where you can,

uh, make your ideas visible.

The next, uh.

Uh, word is populate and that means you,
within this stage that you've created,

you place information, whatever it may
happen to be, from tooo items to customer

needs to, uh, issues into that space.

Super simple.

Next is arrange the space,
the items within the space

that correspond to a model.

And we're gonna talk about
these in a second that supports

the problem to be solved.

If it's a timeline you need to
arrange, you arrange it in a timeline.

If it's dilemmas that you need
to arrange, uh, and organize,

it's within a two by two matrix.

If it's some other model,
like what is hidden, what is

surface, it's another drawing.

If it's a, a root cause diagram, it's
another, so the, the visual structure

supports and reinforces the mental model.

That you use to solve the problem.

Next you choose.

So of the model that you have
chosen, um, you can select the

elements that are relevant.

And then finally, um, exit.

Which is converting the
complexity into a task list.

Um, complexity is the enemy of
execution, which is a term I, or a

phrase I once heard, and I love it.

So, um, so we, through this process
of making space, staging, populating,

arranging, choosing, and exiting,
we have a kind of a universal

model that can be applied to
simple and as we'll see to complex,

complicated, and even wicked problems.

Elizabeth: And it does
seem quite intuitive.

You know, you, you take a breath,
you do a brain dump, you sort of

prioritize and you make a plan.

Um, and it, once you see it all
laid out like that, it doesn't

feel quite so overwhelming.

Tom Wujec: So what I also wanna say about
space is that making the habit of taking.

10 minutes a week or a day,
uh, can be transformational.

Uh, I've worked with a very wide range
of organizations and one of the, the,

um, practices that I'm seeing many
companies, companies that make footwear

and large retailers and, uh, car
companies, AI companies, is that the,

at the beginning of the week, um, the.

Teams need to get together to
talk about what's important.

And typically there's a structured
process of doing it, but often one

of the most, um, simple and powerful
ways is to just create a group

space, large whiteboard where people
simply share, uh, what's important.

A weekly standup.

Everyone writes silently on sticky notes.

They place them up on the
wall in no particular order.

Everyone can see what's
on everyone else's mind.

It's happening in parallel.

And then they go through a process
of what's called a silent sort,

where anyone can move any note
anywhere, uh, to find common clusters.

And what's powerful about this?

Is that you may begin with 15, uh,
different notes of differing points

of view, and then, uh, they can get
clustered into a few categories, which

the grant group then decides upon.

So there can be hidden issues that are
surfaced or issues that then get targeted.

Um.

The difference here is that you've moved
from working, um, linearly, talking,

talking, talking where one person might
command, and then you'll have 10 minutes

of conversation to one, which you do a
three minute exercise where you get to

see everyone's ideas all at once, not just
the one person who's talking, and then

a collaborative activity where you bring
it all together into a common framework.

So that simple shift of
having a visual workspace.

The practice of populating ideas,
putting them up onto the wall,

um, is something that can be
done for very simple activities.

And then we train people to do this
for much more complex issues, such as

their thought leadership strategies,
um, or, uh, building surgical

playbooks in developing countries.

So again, that simple.

Transaction of making space can
be applied to increasingly deep

and rich levels of conversation.

So it's a great practice that you
may want to, um, explore and try.

There's one, if there's a second thing
to do, get a really good whiteboard

or a movable, uh, whiteboard.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

I would also imagine that in that
kind of exercise has to be a pretty.

Kind of a safe culture for everyone to,
to feel safe and putting what they're

thinking, just putting it out there
for everyone to see without judgment.

Tom Wujec: Uh, it's true.

And, and, uh, so people who lead this
practice are, are ones that make,

um, make emotional space available.

Yeah.

So there's no judgment will we?

There are differing
phases of creative work.

Uh, Pixar uses a term called creative.

Collaboration.

We'll talk a little bit about that in,
in a little bit more detail, but there

are differing phases of creative work.

One is, which, one of which
is called creative abrasion.

Now there's creative agility.

Now there's creative alignment.

Creative abrasion is about, uh,
making space available to, uh, build

a marketplace of diverse ideas.

When the manager who needs
the skills of welcoming of.

Inviting diversity of ideas
and of concepts and, um, and

providing them with merit.

So you're not immediately dismissing
the ideas, but you're incorporating

them as part of the, the, the whole is,
is a really valuable and increasingly

vital management skill, being able to,
uh, manage this marketplace of ideas.

Is, uh, is a critical tool and
only one of the entire creative,

uh, collaboration process.

Elizabeth: We'll be back with more
right after a word from our sponsor.

David : The season Premier of
Problem Solved is sponsored by IIS

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Elizabeth: Welcome back to
Problem Solved with Tom W. Check,

Tom Wujec: very often, uh, uh, we're
asked to, uh, solve a technical pipeline

or improve how teams will work together.

And what we found over the last decade
or so is increasingly organizations,

um, struggle with the concept of trust.

Not even the concept of trust, but the um.

Um, the dynamic of trust, how when
a project is broken or if, uh, teams

have differing values or they've
had some bad experiences, trust is

broken, and as a result, the team
dynamics doesn't, doesn't really work.

So engineering methods.

Typically don't work so well to, um, deal
with these, um, uh, more nuanced issues.

So we did a, a, a project for
a large, large games company.

They one of the largest games company,
um, in the world, and they have a

dozen and a half studios globally.

And so they were looking to build a.
Uh, or integrate a common gaming engine

between the studios and it wasn't working.

And this was a problem that
they were struggling with

for, uh, about 10 years or so.

So they invited us in to help figure
out what are the technical dynamics.

So we went through several meetings
to help frame and to explore what

was the real problem underneath.

Fast forward after eight weeks.

Finally, one of the group members
said, you know, I think it's a

problem of trust, a lack of trust.

So I'd like your listeners to think
about, uh, what plays would you run?

How would you go through a
process of staging, populating,

arranging, choosing, and executing?

Um, trust.

Then what I'll do is I'll
share some examples of how we

would do, how we did do this.

So we framed the question
of how do we rebuild trust?

Even the act of saying that was a powerful
tonic because, um, um, folks would go,

yeah, yeah, that's actually the problem.

And then no one kind of really
made eye contact for a while,

so how do you tackle it?

So.

Um, so here we went through several gentle
phases to make the transaction cost low,

easy, and even fun to be able to dig
into the nature of this complex problem.

So, uh, our first pass of going through
space was to frame the question and then

ask people to define, uh, what is trust.

And so people would begin talking
in small groups and go, no, no, no.

Let's use sticky notes and
let's populate them on the wall.

So people would, um, each person would
have six or eight different qualities

of trust, empathy, understanding,
um, vision, um, trustworthiness.

Chris, what does that mean
when you're defining trust?

And so the, and so we would have many,
um, arrangements, uh, of them, and

then we ask them to cluster those.

Into a, um, a single framework.

So what are the common
clusters of, of trust?

So what do we, uh, align on?

And what we, um, then ended up having is
a visual structure, which is actually a.

Equation.

And, um, and since many of them were
engineers, this was just really up

the alley to clarify what trust meant.

And so this first learned this working
with, uh, the Chief Technical officer,

uh, CTO of Lucasfilm, the 20, 25 years
ago when he was sharing his insights on

how to, uh, make his teams more effective.

And he said that his CTO
20 years ago did this.

He made a napkin.

I saw the napkin over there
in the back studio there.

Um, and he wrote the, um, the, the
letters T, which stood for trust equals

C times C times C, all over R. And um,
so you might ask the question, what

do the, the, the letters stand for?

And so in his framework, um,
C, the first C was capability,

your ability to get things done.

Are you able to do what
you say you're going to do?

Next was character.

Are you true to your word?

Will you follow up and will you do
what you say you're going to do?

And the third was caring.

Um, do you give a flying?

I use some colorful language there.

Um, are you empathetic?

Are you willing to put someone else's
needs at your level or even higher?

And so these qualities,
the higher they are.

The higher the trust is on the
other side of the equation.

And so what this did is externalized the
act of, um, uh, talking about a gnarly

subject where we can get self-conscious
into something that becomes, uh,

externalized and easy to, easier to
talk about and easier to, to measure.

And so rather, so when a project
derailed, they can talk about.

Was this a problem of skills?

Was this a problem of not following up?

Was this a problem that
you had other priorities?

And then by addressing those, you
didn't change the behavior and it,

um, it changed how people worked.

R this is the one that I didn't get.

So what does R stand for?

Risk R stands for risk.

You are correct.

So the higher the risk or the
higher the impact of this issue or

project, um, the higher the Cs need
to be in order to, uh, create, um.

Uh, a, a trusting equation.

So this is one, and it's works.

It works really well, but it's even
better to have a group actually go and

build their own equations for trust.

So I have dozens of these and they're all
variations and some of them have sigma

and equations and all kind of, because.

'cause we do them with engineers,
but they, they are accurate models

of what people feel is important.

Uh, the important elements that
underline and underpin trust.

Yeah, that makes so much sense.

It does.

And so again, we take these plays.

So each of this, these are a plays
that breaks down a complex problem

into smaller constituent parts that are
easier to follow and easier to get right.

So, and each of them have
this visual component.

So again, um, how do we build trust?

We have a blank spot.

Then we have a space where everyone
has drawn, um, their sticky notes.

Um, then we have this equation and so
people generate their own equations or

they can use this one here, and then
they compare their equations and go, how

does my equation fit with your equation?

And so.

Typically there is a, a delta, um, in
one, in one of the key groups there.

When we visual, we've ended, ended up
visualizing trust as a bullseye what

was the most important and, um, t um.

Was, um, which was transparency for
one group was way off to the side and

another, it was right in the middle.

And that was the block that prevented
them from collaborating because one

group felt that they were trying to
communicate and then the others were

ignoring the acts of transparency.

And then others were like, um, you
know, you're not giving it to me.

Um, and so it created
an emotional dynamic.

So, uh, again, here we're talking about
classes of problems that are, uh, that

often drive the underlying, uh, behaviors
as opposed to the external problems.

Yeah.

And so when that got, um, uh, visible,
then there was an easy behavioral

change to say that when you.

Um, are making a change, make this
communication visible in this way,

communicating in this particular
pattern, and it solved the problem.

There's much more to it, much more depth.

And of course, this is connected to, um,
metadata visualization and um, um, you

know, emerging AI tools to be able to
swap assets back and forth and much more.

But if the trust isn't there, then
the dynamic of teamwork is lost and.

Um, projects derail and businesses fail.

So problem solving happens
at all different levels.

So this is one example of a
complicated problem, um, that

we, we solved with plays.

Elizabeth: Yeah, and again, you put
that all out there for people to see.

They maybe weren't completely on different
p. Pages, but it was just some groups

of people had more weight on a certain
characteristic than others, and putting

it all out there kind of helps people come
together and, and make sense of things.

Tom Wujec: Mm-hmm.

And, and so again, um, it's interesting
that, um, so two things I would say is

having the structure is really critical.

Um, so we we're.

That's the visual structure
because we've created a simple

visual structure in this place.

This is an equation, or it can
be a, a bullseye of some sort.

Um, again, provides a kind of
context and psychological safety.

The question is really critical because
you know that you are breaking down the

question into subparts that will move
you forward, and then the activity.

That is, is critical, um, are
the actions that people take

that create the psychological
shift in them to move forward.

So the act of going up to a
wall with your colleagues.

Making your equation of trust and then
seeing what their others' equation

of trust are, it creates a kind of
empathy and understanding, um, in

which they're, you know, you, you,
you find and feel common ground.

That's one of the benefits of activity.

So problem solving, as we know,
is not just a mental activity.

It can be emotional as well.

And of course it can also be, we often
do workshops where none of this happens.

It's all about the technical activity
of, um, solving a, uh, a systems problem,

quantum sensors on spacecraft and uh,
or optimizing supply chains and so on.

But again, it's the same
method, but then expanding,

Elizabeth: right?

So as problems get more and more
complicated, you kind of run

through the same framework several
different times and sort of get

more and more specific each time.

Tom Wujec: Yeah, that's right.

So, so, um, a couple things I would also
add to this, and, and again, I'm sure

many of your listeners know of this and,
and have played, uh, with this as well.

Um, so again, just building on the, the
Pixar model of, uh, creative abrasion,

agility and creative alignment, um, in
the course of a problem solving session,

which can be 60 seconds, two minutes.

An hour, a day, a week, often
longer, uh, or sometimes longer.

We often need to go through
three big, uh, phases.

So the first is to ha build a
shared understanding of context.

So what is actually the problem?

What's the data that tells us?

What are the forces?

How can we best articulate,
um, the problem?

How can we.

What is the right model, visual or
otherwise that can accurately and

defensively illustrate the problem?

And a lot of that is, is um, is
the act of creative abrasion.

The second key phase that we also
need to move through is to, uh, is

to systematically create options,
not just one or two options.

People often, one of the great challenges
of problem solving is that, um, people.

I think they're problem solving,
but they're justifying the

choices that they've already made.

Psychologically it's
already locked in them.

And psychologically, with the
50 some odd biases that we

have, we have an anchoring bias.

And if we don't surface them by making
them visible, uh, and not debate

them, then we will default to them.

And so we having the.

Uh, the, the step of systematically
creating options that are clearly

articulated and different from
each other is a powerful tool

to actually solve the problem.

Otherwise, if you've already, um, made
the decision, why go through this process?

You're just spinning, extra
spinning cycles, needle, and

then, um, making bold choices.

Making choices that.

Uh, that matter.

And so there are a, a variety
of, of, um, methods to do that.

Again, what's so interesting
that for each of these broad

phases of, uh, problem solving.

We can, uh, use visual methods to be able
to explore and, and, uh, understand these.

We've simplified this and
put this, made this space.

So, um, this whole act that I just talked
about, abrasion agility and alignment,

context, creating options, making choice.

The acronym is kind of, we, we kind of
stick it into space where you create

the space, you populate it with context.

You, um, uh.

Create options within the arrange section.

You make a choice within the C-section,
then you exit with a, with a plan.

Elizabeth: Okay.

So are we ready to move on to a
even more complicated problem?

Sure.

Or what you, what you
call wicked problems.

So first, can you tell everybody
what a wicked problem is?

Tom Wujec: Sure.

The, the term was, was formulated
or coined in the early seventies

by a couple of researchers,
uh, from the university of.

From Berkeley actually, they were
landscape architects and they said

that, you know, there's a class of
problems, um, where the solution is

very hard or impossible to get to.

And they characterize these
problems as wicked problems.

They're problems that typically
engineering or, um, the, the general

problem solving methods available
at the time just didn't work.

And so they had a list of
the, the 10 qualities of, of.

Wicked problems.

It's kind of, it's kind of zen.

'cause the first one is I think, um.

Defining a a wicked problem
is itself a wicked problem.

Self preferential.

But the way I, I, and a lot of other
people like to define wicked problems

as, um, situations that have qualities
of wickedness and what we don't mean evil

or we don't mean that you're from Boston.

It means that they, there's,
uh, properties of complexity.

So there's a lot of different
elements, um, in it.

Fluidity, it's changing.

It's not something that you can put
your, uh, finger on very easily.

They're often emotionally charged.

So people have a strong
opinion, deeply biased.

So your way of thinking of the situation
is, uh, um, filtered through your.

Um, through your experiences, um,
there's dilemmas and, uh, trade-offs.

In fact, there's another sort of half
dozen quality, but qualities of, of

these, but these are, uh, ambiguous.

I would also add to, to
this, so these qualities.

Um, make it difficult for our brains,
our limited brains, to be able to

process and make sense of them.

So, uh, increasingly more and
more businesses and more and more

of us face more wicked problems.

Ai, um, you know, is.

Complex.

It's complicated.

It's changing so fast.

It's emotionally charged, it's biased.

It's good.

It's not so good.

There are dilemmas.

Are we reaching the limit
of the scaling law or are we

just, uh, in a, a, a, a blimp?

Um, I use the, I have several
large language models.

Day, is it improving my cognition
or am I giving my, the, the thing

that is most human about me with my
ability to imagine and to envision and

to articulate and to, uh, feel a way
to a, um, cognitive, uh, prosthetic.

So yeah, these are
wicked problems, as are.

Pick political situations, pick.

Mm-hmm.

Um, climate change.

Climate change for sure.

You know, um, human rights,
um, um, develop the issues

that developing countries face.

And so one of the, the earlier kind,
the original definitions of problems

is that wicked problems is that you
can't actually solve a wicked problem.

You can only tame a wicked problem.

And, um, for.

Your values and the group that you
represent, um, you can, um, apply methods

and tools to be able to, uh, steer the
outcome towards your particular values.

Elizabeth: So we're not gonna solve
climate change on this podcast.

I

Tom Wujec: left,

it's 10 minutes longer.

We would, we would nail it.

Um,

Elizabeth: but, but you can give
us methods on how to begin thinking

about these things within our own
lives and with our own professions.

Tom Wujec: Sure.

So there, there's a, there's
a great body of knowledge.

We, we run courses on,
uh, this and there's.

Um, fantastic tools, design thinking tools
and others that will guide you and others

to tackle your, your wicked problems.

Um, but what I would, uh, suggest
is there, there are things that as

systems engineers, that we can do
to, um, extend, deepen, and widen the

capabilities that you use every day
to address a wider set of problems.

And they are what we've
already talked about.

So the, the first is to make it a habit
to, when it's important, externalize

your thinking, and that that is,
um, expand your visual toolkit.

Know how to use a line, a two by
two, a circle, uh, know, um, the

dynamics of, uh, a, a systems model.

Again, we.

This is a short podcast, so we didn't
go through the 20 essential diagrams

that, uh, help you arrange information,
but that's, that information can,

um, really help give you more
models and tools that you can bring

to bear to the situation at hand.

Number two, uh, is to facilitate.

Don't just solve problems.

That is to, uh, in the act of running a
play, also being a coach to help others

on your team and your customers select
plays that are better and run them well.

So, uh, some of that is quite, uh,
physical if you're doing sticky

note making, making sure that
people write complete thoughts on

their sticky notes and that they
exhaust the, uh, potential of ideas.

The, the ideas that they need to present.

Um, and then also, uh, coach them
on the, uh, effectiveness and

the efficacy of, of the plague.

Did you really expand?

Did you or, um, are there other
ways of looking at this, et cetera,

facilitate, don't just solve,
um, think in terms of plays.

And the purpose of that, again, is to
pause and select the kind of thinking

that fits the problem that you're facing.

And so as a systems.

Engineer, you've got incredible
set of resources to bring to

bear, and it, they feel complete.

But what would a lawyer
say to the problem?

What would, um, a physician say?

What would a, an evolutionary biologist,
they have different questions which

they visualize in different ways.

Which are also plays.

So by, um, incorporating the questions
that others ask, the values that

they embody and the actions that they
perform, you dramatically expand the

range of, of ways in which you can
think and, um, I think dramatically

improve your, um, your value within your
organization and with your customers.

Elizabeth: Quick question on that one.

Is there ever too much expansion?

Do you ever get too many
thoughts and inputs?

Does that cloud things up?

Tom Wujec: You bet.

So, you know, it, it, a, a good
coach will know when to stop

the creative abrasion phase.

We've got enough ideas, we have
enough, uh, conflicting ideas.

We now need to go into the development of
them, testing them, creating prototypes

of them, um, making sure that they're
aligned with the values or the, the

needs of the organization and the
problem that we're trying to solve.

Um, so I think there's a little bit
of art and science, um, with that, uh.

And different industries
face different challenges.

I, uh, in, in some industries there's
just a rush to the first solution.

The impulse to leap to a solution,
um, is generally a bigger problem

to solve than, um, spinning around
trying, having too many solutions.

The fourth element was, was, um.

Lead with questions.

So, so the act of pausing and in advance
of every play get clear about what are

you trying to solve, um, what smaller
question can we untangle so that we

can move to solve the bigger question?

Think of trust.

Um, the big, uh, uh, question is, is
hard to take in one gulp necessarily,

but by breaking it down, um, uh, in this
analytic approach, we can, uh, make.

Smaller chunks, smaller leaps that
certainly in a group are, are,

are, are easier, become masters of
questions, use them strategically.

And then, and then finally,
um, just continue to, to

cultivate a curious mindset.

I think curiosity.

The curiosity of how the world works,
how we can solve problems, how good you

are as a problem solver, how you can
become better, what are your blind spots.

That, that visual and systems
mindset is the flywheel that

keeps our skills growing.

I'm kind of mixing metaphors there,
but it's the, uh, these are the

five things I would suggest are, um,
great next steps to continue to get

better in, in, in any profession.

Elizabeth: So these steps may come
very naturally to some people.

They might find these, you know,
they have strength in getting through

these other people, maybe not so much.

So if you find that you're short in an
area, what, how do you recommend somebody

kind of betters their skills at this?

Tom Wujec: Uh, again, we have, we have
a whole series of training courses.

We've licensed them to, uh,
many large organizations.

They were used, uh, by PMI, the
Project Management Institute.

I was say, on a practical level,
um, have a notebook that has

no lines in it, or a grid dot.

So externalize your thinking
and ask yourself, how do I

turn this into a picture?

There's a great book called Art
Before Breakfast, which is a, a little

drawing book that is just a, a fun
little thing, a little five minute

exercise to get your brain warmed up.

And it's, um, uh, I've, I've enjoyed that.

Uh, as, as well, facilitate, don't
just solve, I think is, is a, is

really taking a leadership position.

So rather than being.

Um, the person who's on the stage that is
solving the problem, which you sometimes

need to do sometimes, uh, a better
solution is, is to ask questions of the

group, to coax them to a better solution.

Elizabeth: With these visual models
they've shown to be so effective, why

do you think that they're not used more?

Tom Wujec: That's a good question.

Uh, I think there is, um.

You know, I, I, I think
there's a couple reasons.

One is, uh, we, we stop, we think that
drawing is a child or childish activity.

And so even though we have fun drawing,
there is an association often with

very senior leaders, uh, that, uh, I
don't, I don't draw, um, because it is

beneath my elevated skill level and.

Flip side to that is that we often
value, um, eloquence and articulation

over simplicity and, and clarity.

Um, second is that it, it's just not
taught because it's not part of, um.

Our culture, I'm kind of on a mission to
teach and educate people to draw more.

And, uh, I'm not a particularly
good illustrator or draw, but I make

hundreds of sketches a month, um, to
help our customers think about things.

And it's, you don't, it's not about
the technical skill that's important.

It's the, um, knowing the language
and that can be taught in a day.

Okay.

Elizabeth: Well, Tom, you've shared your
knowledge and expertise with corporations

all over the world, and now you've shared
some with us today, and our listeners

can learn more about everything that
we've talked about in our show notes.

Is there anything else that we
wanted to say about any, anything

else that, uh, that we've left out?

Tom Wujec: Um, you know, I, I, we are
just, we are relaunching, we're launching

a whole set of courses on January.

Um, so these and other methods, so we
are, we are launching courses on how

to use visual thinking, um, to address
simple, medium, and, and complex problems.

And there's apps and
decks of cards and so on.

We have another course on, um,
making meetings that don't suck,

which use these methods and tools.

And soon we'll have courses
on managing projects.

You can go to tomwujec.com and that'll
be the master, uh, location for

where to get courses and books and
other material that you, uh, might

be interested in, in looking at.

To learn more about
these methods and tools,

Elizabeth: tomwujec.com.

Alright, well Tom, thank you so much for
being with us today on Problem Solved.

I appreciate it so, so much.

Tom Wujec: Totally my pleasure.

Thanks for the invitation

Elizabeth: Thanks for listening to
Problem Solved, the IISE podcast.

Don't miss our next episode on October
7th where we share how ISE methods,

solve everything from Global Food
Security to TaeKwonDo performance.

Check out the show notes for resources
from today's conversation with Tom

Wujec and a special thanks to Tom and
IISE's performance Excellence webinars.